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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Cost of media

T

Tom Wardrop

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I think the RED Raven can only truly target the sub $10k market if media is made cheaper. RED flash storage is 10x more expensive than equivalent mainstream flash storage (i.e. SSD's). Spending ~$900 for a single 128GB cartridge is just too much for the target market, surely? I've always thought RED overcharges for it's media, but it's loose change to most of RED's customers. With the RAVEN demographic though, I feel media prices need to at least be cut in half to really capture the sub-$10k market.

I've always had a hard time swallowing RED's media prices. At the beginning, you could excuse them for not having the economies of scale to really bring the cost of bespoke media down, but prices these days are barely cheaper than the original media. Not only is their production scale much greater, but the cost of NAND has also at least halved since then.

Thoughts?
 
Camera = $5950
Jetpack = $950
120GB SSD = $850
Media reader = $195
Blackmagic video assist or other hdmi monitor = $500
Added: foolcontrol iOS app for all control of camera = $150
=
$8595

am I missing anything?

Keep in mind that the 120GB are brand new product. If there is tons of demand I would expect RED to make a batch order and as such be able to bring costs down. 512GB is $2450 which equates to $4.78 per GB. 120GB is $850 which equates to $7.08 per GB. I would not assume all media equates the same. Keep in mind they have to buy all this media upfront to have them in stock not knowing what the demand is going to be for a brand new product.

EDIT:
I also remember the original 1.8" 128GB were for sale around $2000. (around the same time I bought my Scarlet. In fact the same week RED announced that they were able to bring the price down to $1250.) So it's not like price of media change is not possible in the future based on demand and new orders from RED to the manufacturers.
 
Last edited:
Tom Wardrop said:
I think the RED Raven can only truly target the sub $10k market if media is made cheaper. RED flash storage is 10x more expensive than equivalent mainstream flash storage (i.e. SSD's). Spending ~$900 for a single 128GB cartridge is just too much for the target market, surely? I've always thought RED overcharges for it's media, but it's loose change to most of RED's customers. With the RAVEN demographic though, I feel media prices need to at least be cut in half to really capture the sub-$10k market.

I've always had a hard time swallowing RED's media prices. At the beginning, you could excuse them for not having the economies of scale to really bring the cost of bespoke media down, but prices these days are barely cheaper than the original media. Not only is their production scale much greater, but the cost of NAND has also at least halved since then.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Yet it is inline with the general cost of other professional media like P2 Express cards for instance.
 
Cams would likely be more expensive if accessories were cheaper
 
I still think a budget media module on cfast would be popular even if fps or compression was limited. The trade in program helps a ton for me so thanks red team
 
Tom Wardrop said:
I think the RED Raven can only truly target the sub $10k market if media is made cheaper. RED flash storage is 10x more expensive than equivalent mainstream flash storage (i.e. SSD's). Spending ~$900 for a single 128GB cartridge is just too much for the target market, surely? I've always thought RED overcharges for it's media, but it's loose change to most of RED's customers. With the RAVEN demographic though, I feel media prices need to at least be cut in half to really capture the sub-$10k market.

I've always had a hard time swallowing RED's media prices. At the beginning, you could excuse them for not having the economies of scale to really bring the cost of bespoke media down, but prices these days are barely cheaper than the original media. Not only is their production scale much greater, but the cost of NAND has also at least halved since then.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

SSD's are the worst. Even the "high end" San Disk ones. The Red media prices are on par with P2 cards and SxS cards. If you're in the market for a professional camera, expect professional prices on things that aren't exciting. ($3000 for a matte box? it's killing me :P haha)

On a side note, all of these "Red SHOULD be doing X" threads are obnoxious.
 
I guess you can't blame folks for trying but this subject has been beaten to death ad nauseum. The argument for media with very high integrity is clear. REDcode is not a "light" format. If you want to do it right and trust that you got it, you can't go cheap.
 
I have to admit the record durations are impressive from what I was reading earlier and raven has some great fps options.. I bet without check sums you don't need many mags
 
I do get where Tom is coming from. Yes it would be more attractive to offer less expensive media for the guys coming from DSLRs. But Raven is more than DSLR. It's a proper cinema camera from a proper cinema company. Jarred explained it once (I speak loosely here, but you get the jist) that Red aren't manufacturing millions of media cards for various uses. They make short runs of accessories to meet their demand and so the cost to manufacture their media is higher. In addition to that their quality control is more strict which commands a premium. I've read countless accounts of people bragging on their, nearly 10 year old, SSDs that haven't given them one day of trouble. I'll take that kind of reliability any day.

Sure a less expensive option would be great. But give me rock solid I'll pay more for it.
 
Samir Patel said:
Camera = $5950
Jetpack = $950
120GB SSD = $850
Media reader = $195
Blackmagic video assist or other hdmi monitor = $500
=
$8445

am I missing anything?

Keep in mind that the 120GB are brand new product. If there is tons of demand I would expect RED to make a batch order and as such be able to bring costs down. 512GB is $2450 which equates to $4.78 per GB. 120GB is $850 which equates to $7.08 per GB. I would not assume all media equates the same. Keep in mind they have to buy all this media upfront to have them in stock not knowing what the demand is going to be for a brand new product.

EDIT:
I also remember the original 1.8" 128GB were for sale around $2000. (around the same time I bought my Scarlet. In fact the same week RED announced that they were able to bring the price down to $1250.) So it's not like price of media change is not possible in the future based on demand and new orders from RED to the manufacturers.
Click to expand...

yes, you are missing something, how to control the camera settings, you really need the touch screen monitor, so add 1450, and another card…
myself, im only getting 512 cards that handle higher data rate so in the future if there are any upgrades the cards will still be viable, its a better investment.
 
A imperfect process where both recording and the media were not 100% reliable existed for many years with tape.
Procedures were built into the shooting process to deal with it.
Do a test recording and replay at every media change (takes around 90 seconds)
The recording was monitored live by a seperate head that gave an immediate warning.

Clearly the goal is to have zero failure rate, but I wonder if a checksum or similar, can be done in-camera during recording that would offer protection for the use of consumer grade media?

The concept of erasing rushes in the field/hotel room is far from ideal.



Mike Brennan.
 
Michael J Brennan said:
A imperfect process where both recording and the media were not 100% reliable existed for many years with tape.
Procedures were built into the shooting process to deal with it.
Do a test recording and replay at every media change (takes around 90 seconds)
The recording was monitored live by a seperate head that gave an immediate warning.

Clearly the goal is to have zero failure rate, but I wonder if a checksum or similar, can be done in-camera during recording that would offer protection for the use of consumer grade media?

The concept of erasing rushes in the field/hotel room is far from ideal.



Mike Brennan.
Click to expand...

You want to do a checksum in real time?
 
Media cost is a big issue for me - I have 4x256GB. But can some one explain to me how the trade in would work if I traded all of my 256GB drives for equivalent sized mini-mags?
I see the RED Mini Mag Side SSD Module is $1500
Then each 250GB RED Mini Mag is $1400
And a RED Mini Mag Reader is $195.00

If am correct I would only get any sort of trade in for the mags, not for the reader or the Side 1.8" Side SSD?

Thanks
 
Tom Chase said:
Media cost is a big issue for me - I have 4x256GB. But can some one explain to me how the trade in would work if I traded all of my 256GB drives for equivalent sized mini-mags?
I see the RED Mini Mag Side SSD Module is $1500
Then each 250GB RED Mini Mag is $1400
And a RED Mini Mag Reader is $195.00

If am correct I would only get any sort of trade in for the mags, not for the reader or the Side 1.8" Side SSD?

Thanks
Click to expand...

RED is offering a trade in discount to purchase 512GB MINI-MAGs if you purchased the REDMAG 1.8" SSDs through them, it's a mag per mag discount from what I understand. Contact your Bomb Squad Rep for more info on that. Don't know how much longer that will go on.

There is no trade in credit for readers or Side SSD Modules.
 
Samir Patel said:
Foolcontrol iOS app I believe is only $150 to control all settings. Raven has wifi built in.
Click to expand...
foolcontrol is nice, but not something you want to use for a whole shoot to setup every shot, especially out on locations.
you want to break out and ipad or iphone for every shot?
i was first just interested in the sidekick, but i quickly learned you need the red monitor.
 
I look forward to using my iPhone with both my packages, it's pretty cool I think
 
Fool control is an incredible app. The design is top notch and would be a fantastic camera control if wifi was dependable.

Have you ever met a wifi device that worked on cue every time. Even a "waiting to connect" for a few seconds can feel like a lifetime while on a tight shooting schedule.

You need hard controls (or monitor) , rt motion is working on some long range fool control options which could increase dependability
 
Philip Lanyon said:
Fool control is an incredible app. The design is top notch and would be a fantastic camera control if wifi was dependable.

Have you ever met a wifi device that worked on cue every time. Even a "waiting to connect" for a few seconds can feel like a lifetime while on a tight shooting schedule.

You need hard controls (or monitor) , rt motion is working on some long range fool control options which could increase dependability
Click to expand...

Thanks Philip :-)
Yes RTMotion is working on cool stuff that will work with RED and foolcontrol... stay tuned
I have a hardwired version of foolcontrol iOS (direct lightning to camera control port cable) but unfortunately last I checked it could not be easily distributed via Apple App Store (even tho the cable itself is 'MFI' approved aka Made For iPhone)
:-(
 
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