Contemplation...

[Detlev Eller]

There is no question that we will take the Sony announcement into consideration.

Jim

hehe... (!)

 

[Brian Boyer]

At the risk of repeating something that's already been said ad nauseam...

Every time the price goes down on anything, even temporarily, somebody is going to get screwed. There is no way to avoid it. It doesn't matter if you're buying high-end electronic equipment or groceries.

It's like musical chairs. Sometimes you get a seat and sometimes you're the one left standing. But someone will always be left standing.

We get screwed in this manner all the time. It's just that most of us probably don't realize it. Or, we do but we except it, unless you're the person who constantly double and triple checks the prices of everything you buy. That can be exhausting.

Occasionally, we do find out about a price drop and we can capitalize on it. B&H honored a price drop on some items I had bought 2 weeks prior. It was enough of a savings to buy an additional lens. RED just sold BT Scarlets for a few thousand dollars less than what I paid for mine. Them's the breaks.

My dad always says a good deal is one you're happy with.

I bought my Scarlet with my own artistic endeavors in mind, like someone might buy an electric guitar.

Yeah, it's more likely to make money if used to work on other people's stuff, similar to how a guitar would generate more money playing the guitar riff from Celebration every weekend at wedding receptions than it would playing original songs.

But, no one ever bought an electric guitar with dreams of being in the world's best cover band.

Now, it's totally up to me to make the plans I had for the camera (and the guitars, actually) a reality. Part of that means adapting to the world around me.

 

[Maurice Branscombe]

I bought my Scarlet with my own artistic endeavors in mind, like someone might buy an electric guitar.

Yeah, it's more likely to make money if used it to work on other people's stuff, similar to how a guitar would generate more money playing the guitar riff from Celebration every weekend at wedding receptions than it would playing original songs.

But, no one ever bought an electric guitar with dreams of being in the world's best cover band.

Now, it's totally up to me to make the plans I had for the camera (and the guitars, actually) a reality. Part of that means adapting to the world around me.

Great post. Well said.

 

[Yusuf Thakur]

Sound advise.
Thanks

Yusuf Thakur
VFX, Dubai
www.vfxme.com

 

[Emanuel A.]

Very well said.

I only ask you be reasonable.

What does "reasonable" mean? Protecting high-end à la what Sony always did ?! :beatdeadhorse5:

Time to some business-makers change...

Or as anyone already mentioned in the other thread, Kodak is not the case study I want to see a sequel

 

[Jaakko Rinne]

This thread reminds me that as fun as post is, I need to go out and shoot more.

 

[Brigham Edgar]

Oh hang on, did I just read the F55 was around $50K...then 4K module around $10K, then the evf and knowing Sony could be around $10K, then cards etc...$80K easy!

 

[Ted Parkes]

Regardless of what the camera costs it takes the same incredible images as it did before the price reduction. Work on!

 

[patrickortman]

If you are looking at value in a camera... look to yourself.

Jim

A-fucking-men. You provide the tools. We provide the rest. No fear, and no excuses.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

What does "reasonable" mean? Protecting high-end à la what Sony always did ?! :beatdeadhorse5:

Time to some business-makers change...

Or as anyone already mentioned in the other thread, Kodak is not the case study I want to see a sequel

No. Protecting people who spent a lot of money on Red gear - not forever (like Sony), just a reasonable time to recoup their money to a reasonable degree. I'm hoping, and even, because I hold him in high regard, expecting, Jim to be reasonable and respectful toward his existing buyers. Anything else would be a total shift in attitude and character.

The Epic X has been available in large numbers as Stage 4 for less than a year. New 34 price is since last January. Less than a year is not realistic unless you are a busy rental house rather than an owner-operator.

In the Betacam days no one bought pro video cameras (few people anyway) because they lost value too quickly - you had to rent them almost every day which as a DP, with prep time, was impossible. For that reason, rentals and purchase price were VERY high. This was not good for anyone. In HDV days that was also the case, to a lesser extent.

Reading through your various posts around the forum, you seem to have a problem with "the high end" and people who make a lot of (or any) money at this. You also state that you slept in your car for a film. You also seem to be an intelligent person with a good heart.

As such I urge you to look up "poverty mentality" on Google. I guarantee this is hurting you. It's OK to be prosperous and make money in this business. There's nothing inherently noble about having no money.

 

[Freya]

Jim, should we lower our rental rates?

Why? Are you not getting any customers?
Has something suddenly changed in your rental market to need a change in prices?
Are your rental customers suddenly complaining you are too expensive and going elsewhere?

love

Freya

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

There is no question that we will take the Sony announcement into consideration.

Jim

Sony now MODULAR

Sony now offering FREE UPGRADES

Sony released their own affordable PL mount prime lenses.

You guys at RED better pay attention to where the market is going! Oh wait...

I have complete faith you guys aimed for where we are going not where we are. I swear their PR people had RED catalogs all over for reference for typing up their schtick.

You guys have awakened the GIANT! Congratufuckinglations. Seriously cool when you think back 2 NAB and Sony was guffawing at 4K.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Great post Jim. What you say is spot on. Red One was in some ways an exception. I still can make money with that camera to this day. That's five years from purchase. I'm not a rental company. The camera is put to use in many ways. Now that there are more camera options than any point in history, investing in them needs to be thought through carefully. If the only purpose is rental income, the ROI probably has to happen more quickly now, as companies turn out new cameras at a much faster clip. For content creators though, it comes down to what you can do with the tools you have access to. In the case of Red One, it's still very much possible to shoot great content with it. So Epic owners should feel even more comfortable that they can shoot great projects with it.

Resale value of a camera has to go into the decision making process when purchasing. Evolving pricing structures have to be accounted for as does market demand. If there is uncertainty in this area, perhaps investing in a camera system might not be the appropriate move. In the case of Epic, I do understand the surprise from some camera owners. I was suprised at the announcement too. But it's probably inevitable given the landscape we are currently in. Hopefully everyone is able to get as much ROI on their investment as possible and if not find creative ways to make money with their cameras.

 

[Freya]

Just contemplating...

RED is in the same boat as everyone else. We can make it better and make it for less given some time. How can we assure that our customers don't get screwed? Most of this is up to you. You need to use your pro equipment and expect that it will be obsolete the minute you buy it. Make it work. Or lose money. It can make you a living or sit on your shelf and devalue. Your call.

Jim

Or coming at it from another viewpoint, are Red supposed to sacrifice themselves so that some of their customers can feel better about their purchases?

In the past I've put other people ahead of me in my life with the consequence that I ended up in a bad place.
Yesterday someone came to me for help. I did my best to help them and they were thankful, but I was limited in what I could do to help them because of my own situation. I felt sad that I could do so little to help.

If you are a Red customer, how is it in your interest for Red to immolate themselves on a stick?
Where would you be then?

Surely red needs to look after itself first and then it will be able to look after its customers too.

As a customer you also need to make good decisions for your own survival and you need to look to yourself and what YOU can do to make things right for you. Then you will also be in a position to help others.

love

Freya

 

[Ben Scott]

Expect more capability for less money as time goes on. Think carefully before you buy anything. As soon as you receive it... use it.

... would be a wonderful idea if my Scarlet side handle hadn't come a fair time after the brain so I had no way of powering the camera without another big outlay. Then it transpired the redvolts lasted 30mins so I had to make the outlay anyway. Then it transpires that the batteries won't stay in the side handle without a fix anyway. Then it transpires that none of the timelapse features past 1fps were enabled so it was back to using my DSLR for that. Then it transpires that HDRX is essentially redundant for Pal-Land in anything but 2k and lower resolution.

I truly love my camera and finally am getting some good work and great results with it for interviews and non-sync offspeed at 3k - and I'll never complain about the price I paid for the unit no matter how much of a price drop is in the offing - but if people are expected to use it the day they get it, then they probably shouldn't get it until it's all good to go and 100% the thing they thought they bought, straight out of the box.

Again, no problem with the way Red works and constantly fixes/updates/upgrades.... And it does feel nice being part of the Red club and this here very helpful community. Rather I just think it's perhaps a bit unfair to suggest 'use it or lose it' when for many people it wasn't quite ready to be used when they first received it.

 

[Mark Phelan]

Value added is what each of us brings to the table. That's it. I don't ever hear anyone ask me what kind of hammer I have in my tool collection. Truth is, I have several and they all do pretty much the same thing.

I got my Epic X for $5,000.00 and I dare say they're not going to be marked down that far when the announcement hits, so I'm good.

 

[SeanBrown]

Kinda looks like sony finally released a "red one" which you all did in 2006. Red=creating the game.

 

[John semikian]

Value added is what each of us brings to the table. That's it.

I got my Epic X for $5,000.00

Completely agree with ur first statement.

as for the $5k EPIC X.. Uhm how? When? And damn u lol j/k congrats on getting that deal.

 

[Jeffrey Loewe]

Kinda looks like sony finally released a "red one" which you all did in 2006. Red=creating the game.

With respect to RED and Sony i'd say they released something significantly better than the R1, in ways rivaling the Scarlet and Epic and winning out in some ways, Scarlet especially. No windowing is fantastic at lower resolutions with higher frame rates. Global shutter, I could go through the obvious. RED stays ahead in resolution and RAW since you don't need a recorder, but the fact you don't have to spend a crap ton more to get proper outputs and XLR is nice...then again you have to pay for the Recorder.

I'd say it comes out pretty even when all is said and done. I'm expecting Dragon to be awesome. At the same time if the rumored prices of close to 15K and 25K are about right, the price drop coming our way might be more than we thought. The 4K frame rates are impressive on both cameras...180 on the F5 and 240 on the 55...in raw.

 

[Sam Taylor]

Thanks Jim, agree with your thoughts!!