Cheap third party Red MiniMag replacement - JinniMag?

[Rob Anderson]

...why that's not okay, and accept that whatever you're shooting must be open to failure, because it will happen. And when it does happen, will you have the integrity to blame yourself and the media? Hell no. This business is cutthroat. You will blame the RED. And therein lies the problem.

Perfectly said.

 

[David Battistella]

Two 120GB RED minimags will cost you exactly $1700.00

A raven will give you about 1.5 hours of recording time.

The media comes from RED, it's stable and affordable.

With each job, put a little bit of cash aside to invest in some more media (if you need it) and build up your ability to record more without having to roll over your cards and back up.

It's not about peasants and poor users, etc.
Media is a cost of any digital capture system and needs to be factored in to any purchase.

Looking at the Raven from a different perspective i think of it this way. RED is sticking to their roots with the RAVEN. They have always wanted to make affordable cinema quality camera acquisition systems to democratize the industry. With RAVEN, they made a camera that has WAY more power and potential compared to the RED ONE for less than half the cost of their first pro camera.

The beauty of RAVEN is that it allows new users into the RED ecosystem at an affordable price and gives filmmakers and businesses a path toward future products. Personally, I am really glad RED did this.

They could just as easily have said, "look, you need 50K to get into our ecosystem, or don't talk to us." Instead they made an powerful, affordable entry level cinema camera for people "frankenfucking" a DSLR to make films.

Then there is the whole, crash cam, B-cam, thing for RAVEN as well.

David

 

[Elsie N]

Hi, Raven peasant here.

I think Rob makes some good points. Sure, the tone is a bit strong, but can you blame him?

If anyone here is thinking about using knockoff media then you need to be educated about why that's not okay, and accept that whatever you're shooting must be open to failure, because it will happen. And when it does happen, will you have the integrity to blame yourself and the media? Hell no. This business is cutthroat. You will blame the RED. And therein lies the problem. I gotta back RED on this one...this crosses the line.

My take on his post is that he doesn't get the new reality. That is, not everyone has the same goals and ambitions he has to "rub elbows with the rich and famous."

From what I get by observing the posts on REDuser, most are more interested in their next job so they can put food on the table and supporting themselves and their family while doing something they love.

Even the Indie crowd are realistic and rather than expecting a wide release are targeting outlets like Netflix or Amazon for exhibition. Many of them have disdain for the Hollywood crowd... so his idea to either buy big or get out of the business doesn't resonate with them.

I think Jarred stated RED's case concisely and strongly enough. A simple "I agree" would have shown what side one comes down on... it's not condescending instruction when he does it because he has a builder's stake in this.

A little less passion and a more reasoned approach can make a point without seeming to set oneself up as the moral authority for other REDusers who the poster seemingly has no understanding for what motivates the hoi polloi.

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

one can always rent media too

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

Law or no law . . . I get why JJ would get heated up about some no-name trash company selling parts that attach directly to the RED's brain. If this was Sandisk or Lexar then things might be different . . . but "JenniMag" . . . bitch please

hahaha!

 

[Tom Dowler]

I think the disconnect here for some people is this.

Historically Red One, Epic and Scarlet users were comparing against the costs of film - stock, labs, scanning, etc. So the cost of the media didn't seem crazy, especially as you could essentially spread it across many productions.

Now that we have more entry-level family members, who are probably coming from DSLRs, Cinema EOS, Sony, GH4-realm of cameras, they're comparing against the cost of SD or CF (or even CFast) cards which are many many times cheaper on a per-Gb basis.

The great thing about this forum is that those on one side of the fence can learn from those on the other. I don't fault any newer, lower-end Red family members for being excited about the prospect of cheaper media - heck, we'd all like everything to be cheaper - but listen to the wise old hands here. There's a reason Red media is expensive, and it's not because Jarred has a new fancy private jet to maintain (okay, maybe it's a little bit that ). Red media is expensive because it needs to be as foolproof and errorproof as film stock if Red is going to be a serious acquisition competitor for big budget Hollywood features.

Raven and Scarlet-W are great because they lower the cost of entry into the Red world. But let's be clear - this is the Red Digital Cinema company, not the Red Skateboarding Video company. Everything is designed around the needs of professional, high-budget productions. And we should all be grateful we get to dip a toe in that particular pool.

 

[Rakesh Malik]

As much as using cheap media is romantic .. it's just not worth it.

Black Magic's first camera is a really good example of this. A lot of people bought under spec SSDs and claimed that their cameras were faulty because they dropped frames like a sieve.

And the guy that just said that non-physical IP should just be free for everyone.... You are nuts. The entire filmmaking industry wouldn't exist.. RED wouldn't exist... this forum wouldn't exist... likely even the internet wouldn't exist if god forbid your dream land was a reality.

There's one of the big things that annoy me about the open source fans. There are some who are thinking the whole thing through and working with open source to make a sustainable business out of it (e.g. Apertus), but most of the time it's just people wanting things free, without considering the fact that in addition to requiring quite a bit of time, talent, and effort to write software like the software on your cameras or Scratch, without charging for it these companies wouldn't be sustainable. Realistically though, in most cases being forced to share IP without licensing fees would kill off innovation entirely, simply by making it unsustainable.

Such a stupid idea in so many ways...

 

[Rob Anderson]

one can always rent media too

I'm not sure why more folks don't consider this option. Media rents for an average of about $50/day. You could rent media for 40 days and total out to $2k and that's not including non-billed prep days, etc. It's a very good option for anyone on a budget.

 

[Rob Anderson]

Maybe reread your post. Point #4 sounds like some real Elitist stuff about how others should spend like you spend or get the F out.

Not at all. My comment was, as I wrote it; against 'cheapskates cutting corners'. It's outrageous that someone would put an entire production at risk. Again, this has nothing to do with the bucks (or lack of) in someone's pocket and everything to do with the character, responsibility, and professionalism that would show up on set with knock-off media so they could pocket a few more dollars. It's reckless and irresponsible.

Not sure why people are clapping about elitism. What's that? I grew up in inner-city Philadelphia, went to public school, and scrapped every nickel I ever earned to get a hand-hold in production. A personal financial situation has got nothing to do with character. Respecting IP, acting professionally, and being responsible. If you can't afford to do the job right then you shouldn't be putting the job at risk. That's not a negative mark against anyone else. It's OK if you're not in the position to afford this stuff. I've been there. But please don't show up on set with critical gear that's not up to task. That's just straight up reckless.

 

[Elsie N]

Rob and I have talked via PM and I am convinced he is a stand-up guy. I think Rob is probably one of those guys who has come up the right way and continues to act in that manner.

On the other hand, I think he may disagree with me when I say that not everyone is capable of the same patience an idealistic career path requires. I see a younger generation that in many ways is too eager. That is, they know what they want and if something like lack of funds stands in their way, they may cut a corner like using a third party product instead of the RED offering... even a non-approved product.

He's right of course when he says don't show up on his set with non-approved media. I'm just saying that on sets where non-approved media shows up, it's simply not an issue.

EDIT: Just wanted to add the closing paragraphs in my last message to Rob as I think it is important:

But I hope you will be a little more tolerant of those who have to act like third-worlders to get things done. They are not bad people... they are just survivors in a dog-eat-dog industry, IMO.

And yes, I do believe if/as they progress in their profession they will become more scrupulous. I think society will give a wink to a youngish generation for buying a knock off but will scorn a successful person for doing so.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Rob and I have talked via PM and I am convinced he is a stand-up guy. I think Rob is probably one of those guys who has come up the right way and continues to act in that manner.

On the other hand, I think he may disagree with me when I say that not everyone is capable of the same patience an idealistic career path requires. I see a younger generation that in many ways is too eager. That is, they know what they want and if something like lack of funds stands in their way, they may cut a corner like using a third party product instead of the RED offering... even a non-approved product.

He's right of course when he says don't show up on his set with non-approved media. I'm just saying that on sets where non-approved media shows up, it's simply not an issue.

EDIT: Just wanted to add the closing paragraphs in my last message to Rob as I think it is important:

But I hope you will be a little more tolerant of those who have to act like third-worlders to get things done. They are not bad people... they are just survivors in a dog-eat-dog industry, IMO.

And yes, I do believe if/as they progress in their profession they will become more scrupulous. I think society will give a wink to a youngish generation for buying a knock off but will scorn a successful person for doing so.

They should do it in silence then. Because A.) it's not approved by RED and sounds like it's breaking some IP laws and B.) If you lose a critical, one time only shot, even if it's a one-man-band film in the backyard shot, it's not fair to then come back and start blaming RED. I know you wouldn't do that Elsie, but there are those people out there who want to take shortcuts and then blame everyone except themselves when things don't go right.

I don't think there's any doubt that all of us want the same thing - cheaper media that allows us to have as many cards on set as we can afford. I think where the line in the sand is drawn is that some of us are not willing to stick a 3rd party card in our camera unless it is approved by RED. Because if something does go wrong with the media, I want to be able to call up RED and get support, including recovery of said media.

This has nothing to do with elitism and everything to do with supporting RED's position on media.

 

[Elsie N]

They should do it in silence then. Because A.) it's not approved by RED and sounds like it's breaking some IP laws and B.) If you lose a critical, one time only shot, even if it's a one-man-band film in the backyard shot, it's not fair to then come back and start blaming RED. I know you wouldn't do that Elsie, but there are those people out there who want to take shortcuts and then blame everyone except themselves when things don't go right.

I don't think there's any doubt that all of us want the same thing - cheaper media that allows us to have as many cards on set as we can afford. I think where the line in the sand is drawn is that some of us are not willing to stick a 3rd party card in our camera unless it is approved by RED. Because if something does go wrong with the media, I want to be able to call up RED and get support, including recovery of said media.

This has nothing to do with elitism and everything to do with supporting RED's position on media.

Couldn't agree more Steve, and if you count the pro-RED posts in this thread against the pro-third party media posts, I think you will agree that most of them are doing just that... keeping quiet.

Steve, as you work out in the public whereas I am concentrating on my own projects, I guess you have more experience with crew than me... and I guess you are speaking from experience. My experience and just general take on it is that most of the ones who will use non-authorized media know they are taking a chance and will not abuse the forum by claiming it's RED's fault.

Besides, what could they gain? If RED says, 'O.K., send in your media and we'll look at it.' then they are going to look pretty foolish when RED reports back to the community that these people were using non-RED media. They would be laughed off the forum and probably out of the business because as we all know, everything on the Internet is permanent.

And just to be clear, I've never called Rob an elitist... or anyone else in this thread. (I may have suggested he was posting condescendingly from up on his high horse but that does not equate with calling him an elitist.) And while I've supported RED financially to the exclusion of everything else, I'm not sure it is reasonable to expect a young man or woman to feel the need to support any big company to their personal detriment.

For me personally, I buy from Wal-mart but I don't support them.

 

[Stacey Spears]

Not sure why the upset on Media only when elsewhere on RU there is promotions and group buys for non-RED approved electronic gear.

Obviously one difference is that there is an actual 3rd party program for DSMC2 modules. They buy a part from RED and build their product on top of it. OLPFs seem to have a similar program where some have bought the housing from RED and added their own filter inside of it. Batteries are a universal interface, at least for V-mount and A/B. There does not appear to be any 3rd party REDVOLT style batteries though.

The RED media is not something they have opened up. If they did open up, they would probably want to certify the media. Would that mean certify one per product line, per batch or every single one sold? That could involve a lot of manual labor on REDs part. They could charge an arm and a leg for the certification and then that would shoot the cost of 3rd party media way up. They could have a self certify program. In that case you would want the media used burned into the metadata so when fingers start pointing you can see what media was used.

In the end though, if there is a failure, the blame will ultimately be on RED regardless of the issue.

I will say I am impressed this thread has remained open and mostly civil. Given Jarred's obvious distaste for this, he has let the thread live on.

From an owner operator point of view where someone might buy a mag or two, the prices might seem high. When you compare to the onetime use for a can of film, this stuff is cheap and you get to re-use it! As others have pointed out, renting a redmag is really cheap too.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Couldn't agree more Steve, and if you count the pro-RED posts in this thread against the pro-third party media posts, I think you will agree that most of them are doing just that... keeping quiet.

Yes, it does seem so. I think the reaction you are getting from those who support RED certified media is because it's the one thing we know that cutting corners could result in catastrophe, especially with things that are difficult to reshoot. For example, although I work on Hollywood films, I also have a very independent side of my filmmaking world. So let's say I was filming a short, a personal project with little to no budget. Perhaps I have a high shooting ratio, so having a few mags would be helpful, so I grab some non-certified 3rd party mags. We luckily manage to get an A-list actor for a day and unbeknownst to me on set the AC loads the 3rd party mags while we film the A-list talent. We have an awesome day of filming but find out that the mags were corrupted. Absolute disaster for me. I know this is an extreme example, and sure the AC should have made sure only RED mags were used on that day, but stuff happens. There's also the ethical part of this. If it's stolen IP, then I don't feel like supporting it. If it was something that fell into a grey area or not covered by IP, then that would be different. Jarred has stated that they are infringing, so that's what I'm going on.

Steve, as you work out in the public whereas I am concentrating on my own projects, I guess you have more experience with crew than me... and I guess you are speaking from experience. My experience and just general take on it is that most of the ones who will use non-authorized media know they are taking a chance and will not abuse the forum by claiming it's RED's fault.

In a world where people think through things carefully before speaking, then sure. Unfortunately in the heat of the moment people say all kinds of things and then word spreads and suddenly people are repeating that RED's media is problematic and people have lost shots. Reality is of course different, but doesn't take much for a rumor to turn into fact.This stuff doesn't always pop up on forums (where it could be easily corrected). It's often amongst crew members, some of whom don't visit forums.

Besides, what could they gain? If RED says, 'O.K., send in your media and we'll look at it.' then they are going to look pretty foolish when RED reports back to the community that these people were using non-RED media. They would be laughed off the forum and probably out of the business because as we all know, everything on the Internet is permanent.

Again, forums are a place where this stuff can get sorted, although even then some inaccuracies still prevail. It's away from the internet that this stuff can take on a life of its own.

And just to be clear, I've never called Rob an elitist... or anyone else in this thread. (I may have suggested he was posting condescendingly from up on his high horse but that does not equate with calling him an elitist.) And while I've supported RED financially to the exclusion of everything else, I'm not sure it is reasonable to expect a young man or woman to feel the need to support any big company to their personal detriment.

For me personally, I buy from Wal-mart but I don't support them.

I was speaking in general terms. No offense meant.

 

[Elsie N]

Yes, it does seem so. I think the reaction you are getting from those who support RED certified media is because it's the one thing we know that cutting corners could result in catastrophe, especially with things that are difficult to reshoot. For example, although I work on Hollywood films, I also have a very independent side of my filmmaking world. So let's say I was filming a short, a personal project with little to no budget. Perhaps I have a high shooting ratio, so having a few mags would be helpful, so I grab some non-certified 3rd party mags. We luckily manage to get an A-list actor for a day and unbeknownst to me on set the AC loads the 3rd party mags while we film the A-list talent. We have an awesome day of filming but find out that the mags were corrupted. Absolute disaster for me. I know this is an extreme example, and sure the AC should have made sure only RED mags were used on that day, but stuff happens. There's also the ethical part of this. If it's stolen IP, then I don't feel like supporting it. If it was something that fell into a grey area or not covered by IP, then that would be different. Jarred has stated that they are infringing, so that's what I'm going on.


In a world where people think through things carefully before speaking, then sure. Unfortunately in the heat of the moment people say all kinds of things and then word spreads and suddenly people are repeating that RED's media is problematic and people have lost shots. Reality is of course different, but doesn't take much for a rumor to turn into fact.This stuff doesn't always pop up on forums (where it could be easily corrected). It's often amongst crew members, some of whom don't visit forums.


Again, forums are a place where this stuff can get sorted, although even then some inaccuracies still prevail. It's away from the internet that this stuff can take on a life of its own.


I was speaking in general terms. No offense meant.

Not meaning to sound argumentative, but there are posts on REDuser right now dealing with the failure of RED Mags. And also at the risk of sounding like I'm defending the JinniMag makers, do we really know they will fail? They seem to be using tried and true Samsung flash if I remember correctly.

Like I said, not meaning to sound like I'm defending them... just bringing this up to question the assumptions that they will fail.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

Not meaning to sound argumentative, but there are posts on REDuser right now dealing with the failure of RED Mags. And also at the risk of sounding like I'm defending the JinniMag makers, do we really know they will fail? They seem to be using tried and true Samsung flash if I remember correctly.

Like I said, not meaning to sound like I'm defending them... just bringing this up to question the assumptions that they will fail.

There's a huge difference. When a RED mag is bad (which is very rare) I can go to RED and say "this mag has problems". If I can't recover the files myself, I can send the mag in to RED to see if they can salvage the footage. In other words, there is accountability there. If I use 3rd party media, I know the response I get from Jarred will have a few F bombs in there. And rightfully so.
Obviously this comes down to calculated risk. If this guy goes forward and actually makes these mags, those purchasing will do so at their own risk. Nothing I can say or do to stop anyone from making that choice. I just know from my experience, I've always gone with supported media such as the 64GB 95MB/s SD cards for GH2/BMPCC. I've always rented additional media when I needed it, allowing me to stay confident I'll get the shots.
Your point about any media having the potential to fail is valid. It just comes down to whether you can get the support when something does go wrong.

 

[Elsie N]

There's a huge difference. When a RED mag is bad (which is very rare) I can go to RED and say "this mag has problems". If I can't recover the files myself, I can send the mag in to RED to see if they can salvage the footage. In other words, there is accountability there. If I use 3rd party media, I know the response I get from Jarred will have a few F bombs in there. And rightfully so.
Obviously this comes down to calculated risk. If this guy goes forward and actually makes these mags, those purchasing will do so at their own risk. Nothing I can say or do to stop anyone from making that choice. I just know from my experience, I've always gone with supported media such as the 64GB 95MB/s SD cards for GH2/BMPCC. I've always rented additional media when I needed it, allowing me to stay confident I'll get the shots.
Your point about any media having the potential to fail is valid. It just comes down to whether you can get the support when something does go wrong.

Yeah, I only brought that point up to answer the statement that people would be posting that RED media is at fault, and it actually being true in some cases.

Basically were on the same page... I'm more or less playing Devil's Advocate. '-)

 

[Stacey Spears]

If I use 3rd party media, I know the response I get from Jarred will have a few F bombs in there. And rightfully so.

Let's be honest Steve, Jarred would not be dropping any F bombs because there is no way in hell that you would be crazy enough to even email him!

 

[Brandon Shafto]

:emote_popcorn:

Awww, it's over. Oh well, off to the Book of Face for more dimwittery.

 

[Elsie N]

:emote_popcorn:

Awww, it's over. Oh well, off to the Book of Face for more dimwittery.

Dimwittery does seem to attract like. '-)