Cheap third party Red MiniMag replacement - JinniMag?

[Mike Nagel]

@ Jarred: this is off topic but related to media.

I know u're busy as hell but it would be very helpful if redundead got a Windows version and/or was directly integrated in RCX. I had to use it twice over the years - on corrupted RED SSDs - and the sw works but had to go through Apple OS, and that gives me more shiver than the fear of losing my footage.... ;-)

and when u're on set with no rotten Apple in sight, it makes it very hard to make a decision whether u can move on or immediately re-shoot all of those shots... disclaimer: I got OSX on a VM, so it is possible but a big PITA.

 

[Jarred Land]

@ Jarred: this is off topic but related to media.

I know u're busy as hell but it would be very helpful if redundead got a Windows version and/or was directly integrated in RCX. I had to use it twice over the years - on corrupted RED SSDs - and the sw works but had to go through Apple OS, and that gives me more shiver than the fear of losing my footage.... ;-)

and when u're on set with no rotten Apple in sight, it makes it very hard to make a decision whether u can move on or immediately re-shoot all of those shots... disclaimer: I got OSX on a VM, so it is possible but a big PITA.

Not really off topic as it actually does relate..., I'd love to say yes.. REDundead is a great piece of software that has saved many lives over the years...... but like everything...It cost us money and engineers to develop. Apparently there is no value to that... and people don't seem to understand that that development and support needs to get paid for.. so after this discussion.. the reality is it's probably going to hafta be a no.

 

[R. Gonzales]

This is pretty fucked up!!

 

[Samir Patel]

Seriously? I'm going into a Ferrari dealer to ask for Kia prices? If you can't afford it? Fine.... Wait or rent media until you can afford it. When I bought my original media (2 x 128/1.8 mags) I knew they were fine for the time (they were expensive but it was the cost to move up to a legitimate platform for media creation). They have failed me 0 times. That's ZERO!. I bought a used 128 and that failed ZERO times. I am waiting to upgrade two of those mags to mini-mags. I have a camera sitting here which I don't even own minimag media for... but to complain that it costs too much and I would be tempted to use a hack media. GTFO. I would NEVER trust an untested potentially unreliable media card in a camera I rely on day in and day out. Can't afford it? Rent or better yet assist a fellow reduser on his jobs and borrow a card as trade and get your job done. Do enough jobs and you will forget ever complaining about media costing so much.

 

[Josiah Duncan]

When you are shooting whatever your shooting and you get corruption and you need to tell the producer that hired your that you just lost his $10,000 , $100,000, $1,000,000 shot from corruption, Most of you will not say " sorry I used a shitty card, my fault" . Most of you will say " The RED camera corrupted the card " .

This is reason enough to have the proprietary media. As someone who has had a shoot lost before on inferior CF cards (and not just corruption, the card just wouldn't function), it's arguably the most integral piece of the camera package. Completely understandable that RED would want to keep a tight fist around this.

 

[Daniel Reed]

I wish folks would stop comparing REDMAGs to SSDs

I tend to think of them more as 100/50/25/12.5 minute cans (1TB/512/240/120)

50 mins of 3-perf S35 process alone is about $1000-1250 depending on a huge range of factors - and that doesn't include the print OR scan OR the original film!

 

[Jimmy Reynolds]

Ok, So for arguments sake, This is IF Jarred/Red give them the thumbs up. (I'm completely staying away from the ethical/moral/legal/Karma side of the debate.)

Would 99% of us ever touch them. Hell no. We are happy with our red mags. I just bought 2x240's second hand to compliment my 2x128's that i bought second hand 2 years ago.
Would i trust my camera on a $100,000 shoot day, no id probably rent in a new weapon to shoot on.

But for every thing else from a bad low budget music video to a $100,000 dollar ad where i can redo a shot if needed sure thing. My camera has been amazing and it has changed my life..

Now on the other hand, looking back 15 years to when i was shooting BMX videos with the first DV tape camera and living on peoples couches and reusing The cheapest TDK tapes 10 times and hoping the DV glitch didnt happen in the part where we actually landed the trick and learning early after effects to remove glitches.

The people that are in that situation now. Who managed to hustle an old scarlet and have it propped up on a plank with a brick as a sandbag making that first student film. they are the guys who will consider the cards (please remember my above statement).

Yes Jarred and Red you guys have made the coolest F*****G camera we could dream of owning. And students and young filmmakers will hustle their ass off to scavenge one to film with. But they will run out of cash and will have to cut corners to make it happen. BUT 25 films later when they can afford to buy whatever the latest Stormtrooper Helium is then 100% they will buy all the Redmags they need without batting an eyelid.

So for us reliability is a concern. It isn't to some people. Just having a Red on set is a dream come true already for them.

Now the politics start:
I dont know how accurate this is, but the rumour when i was young was that Adobe sort of turned a blind eye to people cracking their software when they are students so that they can learn Photoshop / Premiere / whatever but when they get proper jobs they will continue to use that software and happily pay the fees. I happily pay my CC license every month even though 95% of what i use the suite for is helping my wife process photos of her friends kids. But i pay and im happy that if i have to load an editors project to check something on set then it will work.

So If these mags can help young filmmakers get an affordable red setup (please remember that this is all under the hypothesis that they are approved by Red) or a Red setup at all. then We should understand that we have a very privileged perspective on film gear. Lend your baby out for free on student film and see how their behaviour changes compared to if they were shooting on a 5D.

 

[David Battistella]

Did everyone also forget that RED bought back REDMAGS (offering a discount on new media) from people who transitioned to minimags?

Did they have to do that?

Things do come down to expectations and apparently everything needs to be free now.

David

 

[David Battistella]

@Jimmy Reynolds

I've heard this one over the years. What guarantees the Adobe loyalty is not the user, but the manufacturer. Adobe pretty much has a monopoly when it comes to some of their software. There is no other choice really.

If you check out young(er) Redusers like Joseph Hutson or Tony Augustinak, these guys took their life savings at 18 or 19 years old and jumped in the game with everyone else and are building substantial careers just by being, polite, hard working and totally willing to learn. They did not go to RED and say, "hey, I'm the future give me a break." Instead it was more like. "Here's my money, give me one of those cameras too because I think this is the future and I want to get onboard." And these are not guys who had it handed to them, they earned it.

While I appreciate the needs of students or young people I also really appreciate those two young guys that just jumped in like everyone else and set an example for their peers.

David

 

[Elsie N]

Ok, So for arguments sake, This is IF Jarred/Red give them the thumbs up. (I'm completely staying away from the ethical/moral/legal/Karma side of the debate.)

Would 99% of us ever touch them. Hell no. We are happy with our red mags. I just bought 2x240's second hand to compliment my 2x128's that i bought second hand 2 years ago.
Would i trust my camera on a $100,000 shoot day, no id probably rent in a new weapon to shoot on.

But for every thing else from a bad low budget music video to a $100,000 dollar ad where i can redo a shot if needed sure thing. My camera has been amazing and it has changed my life..

Now on the other hand, looking back 15 years to when i was shooting BMX videos with the first DV tape camera and living on peoples couches and reusing The cheapest TDK tapes 10 times and hoping the DV glitch didnt happen in the part where we actually landed the trick and learning early after effects to remove glitches.

The people that are in that situation now. Who managed to hustle an old scarlet and have it propped up on a plank with a brick as a sandbag making that first student film. they are the guys who will consider the cards (please remember my above statement).

Yes Jarred and Red you guys have made the coolest F*****G camera we could dream of owning. And students and young filmmakers will hustle their ass off to scavenge one to film with. But they will run out of cash and will have to cut corners to make it happen. BUT 25 films later when they can afford to buy whatever the latest Stormtrooper Helium is then 100% they will buy all the Redmags they need without batting an eyelid.

So for us reliability is a concern. It isn't to some people. Just having a Red on set is a dream come true already for them.

Now the politics start:
I dont know how accurate this is, but the rumour when i was young was that Adobe sort of turned a blind eye to people cracking their software when they are students so that they can learn Photoshop / Premiere / whatever but when they get proper jobs they will continue to use that software and happily pay the fees. I happily pay my CC license every month even though 95% of what i use the suite for is helping my wife process photos of her friends kids. But i pay and im happy that if i have to load an editors project to check something on set then it will work.

So If these mags can help young filmmakers get an affordable red setup (please remember that this is all under the hypothesis that they are approved by Red) or a Red setup at all. then We should understand that we have a very privileged perspective on film gear. Lend your baby out for free on student film and see how their behaviour changes compared to if they were shooting on a 5D.

I think you've captured the essence of the debate. People who would buy an item like this are people who are scrambling. I've had some experience with that myself so I won't judge them.

But based on what you've said, behaviorally I think you have gotten it right.

Oh, and I too now pay a monthly CC fee, and have paid for Premiere and AF via updates for the past five or more versions. "-)

 

[Brody_B]

This thread has turned

 

[Aaron Porta]

I think you've captured the essence of the debate. People who would buy an item like this are people who are scrambling. I've had some experience with that myself so I won't judge them.

But based on what you've said, behaviorally I think you have gotten it right.

Oh, and I too now pay a monthly CC fee, and have paid for Premiere and AF via updates for the past five or more versions. "-)

At first I thought you all were missing the stolen IP part but it sounds like you all understand that it is in fact stealing but you seem to be good with that. Those of you defending this are saying you all stole Adobe software in the past when you were poor but it is all ok because now you pay for it. No that is not good. This is not how a functional society works. Just because you are poor doesn't mean you can steal things.

 

[Elsie N]

At first I thought you all were missing the stolen IP part but it sounds like you all understand that it is in fact stealing but you seem to be good with that. Those of you defending this are saying you all stole Adobe software in the past when you were poor but it is all ok because now you pay for it. No that is not good. This is not how a functional society works. Just because you are poor doesn't mean you can steal things.

Said the spokesperson for the Trust Fund Babies United. '-)

 

[Aaron Porta]

Said the spokesperson for the Trust Fund Babies United. '-)

WTF does that even mean? So you are saying if you are poor it is ok to steal?

 

[Elsie N]

WTF does that even mean? So you are saying if you are poor it is ok to steal?

No.

I was on jury duty once and one case before us was a man caught breaking into a home. It was determined by the DA that the man was only looking for food. At the time, my moral compass was ready to point that person straight to jail.

The DA led us away from that decision by showing compassion for someone who was simply hungry, so we no-billed him.

That made a lasting impression on me and I've ridden a low horse in making judgement calls like this ever since.

 

[Michael Hastings]

You do realize that we go through a lot of expense to get heavily screened memory and alot of testing goes into making sure it is the best available... that we make custom firmware specific to the cards and we have a pretty extensive QC and our development on media is pretty insane and go through many, many, man years of testing with a lot of engineers to pass all our media? You know that costs money right?

I just am shocked how some of you that I would expect to know how this all works really just don't get it.

Actually, I do get it and didn't mean to offend - (and who am I to talk given how much I charge for a piece of "sewer pipe" as that renowned reduser Pawel used to say :wink5 sometimes I say things just to learn from the responses and yours were both reasoned and informative. For instance I didn't know that about Arri and the cFast cards not recording raw (from your previous post) or the issues with Canon. I've been a confirmed Red camera user since 2007 (on my 4th now) so although I stay aware of the other cameras I don't follow them in as much depth. So I do think it was useful to get your response.

I should have thought a bit more before posting (hey it was late over here) as I realize that this is a sore subject for you and not necessarily because of the money part - more for the having your IP ripped off after you have done all of the research and development (I've been there).

As far as the "locked out" part - 1) as a customer there are times when every shot isn't that critical (say a concert or a play with multiple camera coverage) but you need lots of media because of the time length - and as a reasonable guy I feel like I wouldn't complain if a few shots were lost to regular media but 2) if I put on my manufacturer hat I realize that isn't the way it works. I can remember years ago a customer bugging me to put a Schroeder valve (like the ones on your tires) in the housing so he could pull a vacuum for a quick leak test. I said "look if I start doing that some idiot will take it to the gas station and hook it up to the compressor and blow it up in his face (the clamps for the front and back are designed for external pressure - not internal) and right or wrong they will come after me." In the end I wanted to help him out but didn't want the liability of even selling him one so I took one of the valves and the proper tap out of the drawer and laid it on a table and told him that "if they weren't there when I came back I wouldn't be upset".

So as a manufacturer I understand that often, unfortunately, you have to design your product and your policies to handle not the best customers but the worst.


Again, no offense intended, as a business man I understand the multipliers necessary to cover indirect costs, R&D, rejected parts, prototypes, overhead, marketing, and even profit to keep the doors open, but last night I had my customer hat on and was lobbying for keeping the multiplier as tight as you possibly can.

And to to be perfectly clear: the whole Jinnimag idea isn't cool.

 

[Curtis boggs]

So as a manufacturer I understand that often, unfortunately, you have to design your product and your policies to handle not the best customers but the worst.


And to to be perfectly clear: the whole Jinnimag idea isn't cool.

As a business owner outside of the camera world ( http://www.raceflowdevelopment.com ) I have to 100% agree with the above statement.

Michael, I had a Super VHS in one of your housings in early 1990's when I worked in FreePort Bahamas filming sharks.

 

[PC Greene]

Well said and thanks for clarifying things.

We've been beating the hell outta our 600 GB of Mags for years without losing a byte.

Yes, media costs have always sucked going back to film and tape, but that's just part of the media creation equation.


Thank you,

Guys... I can't tell you how much this pisses me off. Not from a business perspective, but as a patent holder and a creator.

Like all of you, we spend a lot of time money and effort creating what we do.

For our media, we developed our own IP and Firmware and spent millions of dollars testing, certifying and QC every media card that we ship. Its why we have significantly less card errors than other companies using generic media... even reputable generic media.

Media is one of the most critical components of the entire system and the way we write to a card is very different than a normal SSD is programed for.

For some random company to hack and duplicate our IP and our firmware ( which is the only way they could do this ) is exactly like someone stealing your films and calling them their own and selling them to others. It goes against everything I stand for.


I don't know where this company is from. I assume the UK cover is just bullshit. Someone said China but I really hope this is not the case as China has made such significant improvements over the last decade turning around their attitude towards Copyright infringement , Trademark violations , and IP theft ( which it appears this company has broken all three in one swoop )

I am shocked some of you are here are actually endorsing this.

I will shut RED completely down... I am not kidding... If stealing each others shit suddenly is deemed acceptable.

It's not a world I want to work or create or live in.


Jarred

 

[PC Greene]

While I can see your perspective, the bigger problem this creates is the perception of unreliability that spreads when shite media fails as happened with Blackmagic cameras. Most producers etc on set have no idea *why* a shot or card was lost, they just know that damn XXXXXX camera lost our footage...


Best,




As far as the "locked out" part - 1) as a customer there are times when every shot isn't that critical (say a concert or a play with multiple camera coverage) but you need lots of media because of the time length - and as a reasonable guy I feel like I wouldn't complain if a few shots were lost to regular media but 2) if I put on my manufacturer hat I realize that isn't the way it works. I can remember years ago a customer bugging me to put a Schroeder valve (like the ones on your tires) in the housing so he could pull a vacuum for a quick leak test. I said "look if I start doing that some idiot will take it to the gas station and hook it up to the compressor and blow it up in his face (the clamps for the front and back are designed for external pressure - not internal) and right or wrong they will come after me." In the end I wanted to help him out but didn't want the liability of even selling him one so I took one of the valves and the proper tap out of the drawer and laid it on a table and told him that "if they weren't there when I came back I wouldn't be upset".

So as a manufacturer I understand that often, unfortunately, you have to design your product and your policies to handle not the best customers but the worst.


Again, no offense intended, as a business man I understand the multipliers necessary to cover indirect costs, R&D, rejected parts, prototypes, overhead, marketing, and even profit to keep the doors open, but last night I had my customer hat on and was lobbying for keeping the multiplier as tight as you possibly can.

And to to be perfectly clear: the whole Jinnimag idea isn't cool.[/QUOTE]

 

[Kwan Khan]

Reading the Jenni press release: typical broken English in the copy. No way this is a UK company. Closer to Shenzhen perhaps

Hahaaa... I Agreed