Cheap third party Red MiniMag replacement - JinniMag?

[Matt Doane]

Even if these are real, which I doubt, I can't fathom putting one into my camera. Our camera is mission critical, and risking it on media that could blow it up just to save a few bucks is the worst idea ever. Not to mention the whole theft thing.

I'd rather use the media the RED team makes and stands behind. Even if it is expensive. They've clearly earned that mark up in spades.

 

[Ryan Sauve]

To say RED has always had my back feels like an understatement. I intend to reciprocate for as long as I'm in this business.

 

[Brian Nguyen]

Even if these are real, which I doubt, I can't fathom putting one into my camera. Our camera is mission critical, and risking it on media that could blow it up just to save a few bucks is the worst idea ever. Not to mention the whole theft thing.

I'd rather use the media the RED team makes and stands behind. Even if it is expensive. They've clearly earned that mark up in spades.

As for the message to my fellow Filmmakers...

If you haven't ever been on a set where a Film Roll was accidentally damaged beyond usability...

Then you don't know what it fills like loosing critical shots, that might be or might be not possible to re-shoot...

Either way, the loss of that day's work, and all that went in to it, suddenly made that great day's work, a nightmare... Both artistically and Financially!!


So if you are even thinking of giving this third party media a try...

There is of course the moral factor, of supporting a product form a company which has Stolen some one else's fruit of their hard labor and financial commitment...

Then you must also think very hard how much you are willing to risk loosing on set... If you like playing Russian roulette that is...

Absolutely. I don't even understand why 3rd party mags would be a thing -- does media integrity (let alone your own integrity) not matter to some people?

How do you explain that you lost an entire days worth of shooting to your Producer because you went el cheapo on your media? "Uhh, sorry, I was too cheap to get real RedMags and bought knock-off Chinese ones instead."

Media loss does happen, and cards (even RedMags) go down, yes, but I know that I can always send it to RED and they can usually figure out how to retrieve it. Having that insurance and fallback is worth the cost.

 

[Samir Patel]

Even if these are real, which I doubt, I can't fathom putting one into my camera. Our camera is mission critical, and risking it on media that could blow it up just to save a few bucks is the worst idea ever. Not to mention the whole theft thing.

I'd rather use the media the RED team makes and stands behind. Even if it is expensive. They've clearly earned that mark up in spades.

Agreed

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

WTF? Remind me never to buy any used gear from you. Seriously dude, first day with the new moral compass?

Haha, excellent replica.

This really all is very sad and it looks like it is just getting worse.

It obviously needs to get worse to reach the boiling point, because many don't react until kicked in the butt.

It's crazy. The whole world just seems to have gone to shit.

Yes it has. And has to be dug out of it.
So many have to start shovelling.

 

[Kjell S]

To begin with, it seems there is half a generation of people who did not learn that it is wrong to download and copy content. And you can discuss it to ages, they always twist it as much as need to make their own perception work. They don't understand you, but expect you to understand them.

So I'm going to put my hand in the wasps' nest here and say this is also true of many IPR pundits, they don't give one f*ck about real property, privacy, consumer rights, interoperability, neutrality of third parties, abusing IP to retain control and restrict competition and so on. I think it peaked with books where you bought a copy and for all intents and purposes it was yours. I could read it anywhere, any time, any way I wanted, lend it, trade it, sell it, burn it and do almost anything without asking anyone's permission. Nobody was harassing those who made paper or ink or printing presses.

I hate modern content where you sold it, but you won't let it go. It'll still be wrapped in DRM, demand activation, refuse to fast-forward, disallow backups, refuse to play on other devices or software, it won't play in other regions and refuse to work on perfectly capable hardware because it doesn't conform to the latest in digital restriction management. I've cracked games I'd already bought because it refused to play. I've downloaded shows off torrents I already had on streaming, because the player was buggy. I've refused to buy printers who DRM their ink cartridges, it's like digitally signing my car's gas tank ar so I don't buy gas from anyone else.

I don't like that the content industry keeps harassing ISPs, YouTube, the creators of BitTorrent clients and tries to get total control of the Internet just so they can stop piracy. I don't like that the tools to get access to the content I've bought or even information about them are criminalized. I don't like that they want deep packet inspection of communication to find pirates. I don't like that the content industry continues to say "buy" and "own" while in reality trying to reduce it down to a limited use license on their terms. I don't like that they keep pushing for extensions so we'd still be paying royalties to Shakespeare and the guy who invented fire.

I fundamentally disagree with the idea that immaterial rights are property. If I gather my own firewood, find my own flint and start my own fire it's mine even though I looked at what you did and did exactly the same. A recipe does not mean you own the cake, not the slightest bit of it. Not even in the age of copy-paste. We give copyrights and patents that expire, we let you have trademarks for our sake so we can recognize authentic goods. They're not permanent rights that society steals from you after a while. I want people to be creative and innovative and new things to be rewarded, but it's exclusive, limited rights for limited times. Not ownership.

 

[Elsie N]

So I'm going to put my hand in the wasps' nest here and say this is also true of many IPR pundits, they don't give one f*ck about real property, privacy, consumer rights, interoperability, neutrality of third parties, abusing IP to retain control and restrict competition and so on. I think it peaked with books where you bought a copy and for all intents and purposes it was yours. I could read it anywhere, any time, any way I wanted, lend it, trade it, sell it, burn it and do almost anything without asking anyone's permission. Nobody was harassing those who made paper or ink or printing presses.

I hate modern content where you sold it, but you won't let it go. It'll still be wrapped in DRM, demand activation, refuse to fast-forward, disallow backups, refuse to play on other devices or software, it won't play in other regions and refuse to work on perfectly capable hardware because it doesn't conform to the latest in digital restriction management. I've cracked games I'd already bought because it refused to play. I've downloaded shows off torrents I already had on streaming, because the player was buggy. I've refused to buy printers who DRM their ink cartridges, it's like digitally signing my car's gas tank ar so I don't buy gas from anyone else.

I don't like that the content industry keeps harassing ISPs, YouTube, the creators of BitTorrent clients and tries to get total control of the Internet just so they can stop piracy. I don't like that the tools to get access to the content I've bought or even information about them are criminalized. I don't like that they want deep packet inspection of communication to find pirates. I don't like that the content industry continues to say "buy" and "own" while in reality trying to reduce it down to a limited use license on their terms. I don't like that they keep pushing for extensions so we'd still be paying royalties to Shakespeare and the guy who invented fire.

I fundamentally disagree with the idea that immaterial rights are property. If I gather my own firewood, find my own flint and start my own fire it's mine even though I looked at what you did and did exactly the same. A recipe does not mean you own the cake, not the slightest bit of it. Not even in the age of copy-paste. We give copyrights and patents that expire, we let you have trademarks for our sake so we can recognize authentic goods. They're not permanent rights that society steals from you after a while. I want people to be creative and innovative and new things to be rewarded, but it's exclusive, limited rights for limited times. Not ownership.

As countervailing opinions go, yours is well enunciated.

 

[David Battistella]

This is turning into an open system vs closed system sort of discussion and I get where that is coming from as these issues do affect our world. It's no secret that the RED ecosystem is more of a closed system (which has opened up a ton lately and is to be expected as things evolve) but it does not change the fact that red developed their media in a way to ensure reliability and to avoid failure.

That comes from the thinking of becoming the digital replacement to film. But not just a replacment but maybe even a system that is better, more consistent and more reliable. This means more RD and investment toward that goal. I do remember when I got my RED One which recorded to a CF card. There was concern about what cards could be used and a lot of discussion around reliability and long term performance. Enter the RED MAG.

After years of proven reliability and robust build larger capacities, etc someone decided to just take that which does not belong to them and offer it out to the public. It's theft. It's not different from me carjacking you or walking into your house and leaving with a TV under my arm.

There red are many valid points about the advantages of both open and closed systems, I get that, but it feels like it applies less here because to me it's two things and two problems.

A person steals another persons property.
Another person buys that stolen property.

Not it sure which is worse but it might be the latter.

David

ps: it's actually very cool that this thread has lived this long on Reduser because if I was being robbed, I'd hate to also have to listen to the guy who bought the stuff someone stole from me talk about it to my face.

 

[Elsie N]

This is turning into an open system vs closed system sort of discussion and I get where that is coming from as these issues do affect our world. It's no secret that the RED ecosystem is more of a closed system (which has opened up a ton lately and is to be expected as things evolve) but it does not change the fact that red developed their media in a way to ensure reliability and to avoid failure.

That comes from the thinking of becoming the digital replacement to film. But not just a replacment but maybe even a system that is better, more consistent and more reliable. This means more RD and investment toward that goal. I do remember when I got my RED One which recorded to a CF card. There was concern about what cards could be used and a lot of discussion around reliability and long term performance. Enter the RED MAG.

After years of proven reliability and robust build larger capacities, etc someone decided to just take that which does not belong to them and offer it out to the public. It's theft. It's not different from me carjacking you or walking into your house and leaving with a TV under my arm.

There red are many valid points about the advantages of both open and closed systems, I get that, but it feels like it applies less here because to me it's two things and two problems.

A person steals another persons property.
Another person buys that stolen property.

Not it sure which is worse but it might be the latter.

David

ps: it's actually very cool that this thread has lived this long on Reduser because if I was being robbed, I'd hate to also have to listen to the guy who bought the stuff someone stole from me talk about it to my face.

All good points David. The one thing I'm having trouble with is where this differs from what Wooden Camera was doing in the early days (before RED just decided to embrace them).

Not taking a stand, just trying to see the order of things.

 

[David Battistella]

I have no knowledge of anything that went down, but I do know that holding a grudge for too long or at all is rarely a good thing. If anything, that kind of shift shows a kind of openness and willingness to move when that is what makes sense to do so. We all get that you can't chop down all the trees without planting seedlings as well.

David

 

[Alberto Guglielmi]

So I'm going to put my hand in the wasps' nest here and say this is also true of many IPR pundits, they don't give one f*ck about real property, privacy, consumer rights, interoperability, neutrality of third parties, abusing IP to retain control and restrict competition and so on. I think it peaked with books where you bought a copy and for all intents and purposes it was yours. I could read it anywhere, any time, any way I wanted, lend it, trade it, sell it, burn it and do almost anything without asking anyone's permission. Nobody was harassing those who made paper or ink or printing presses.

I hate modern content where you sold it, but you won't let it go. It'll still be wrapped in DRM, demand activation, refuse to fast-forward, disallow backups, refuse to play on other devices or software, it won't play in other regions and refuse to work on perfectly capable hardware because it doesn't conform to the latest in digital restriction management. I've cracked games I'd already bought because it refused to play. I've downloaded shows off torrents I already had on streaming, because the player was buggy. I've refused to buy printers who DRM their ink cartridges, it's like digitally signing my car's gas tank ar so I don't buy gas from anyone else.

I don't like that the content industry keeps harassing ISPs, YouTube, the creators of BitTorrent clients and tries to get total control of the Internet just so they can stop piracy. I don't like that the tools to get access to the content I've bought or even information about them are criminalized. I don't like that they want deep packet inspection of communication to find pirates. I don't like that the content industry continues to say "buy" and "own" while in reality trying to reduce it down to a limited use license on their terms. I don't like that they keep pushing for extensions so we'd still be paying royalties to Shakespeare and the guy who invented fire.

I fundamentally disagree with the idea that immaterial rights are property. If I gather my own firewood, find my own flint and start my own fire it's mine even though I looked at what you did and did exactly the same. A recipe does not mean you own the cake, not the slightest bit of it. Not even in the age of copy-paste. We give copyrights and patents that expire, we let you have trademarks for our sake so we can recognize authentic goods. They're not permanent rights that society steals from you after a while. I want people to be creative and innovative and new things to be rewarded, but it's exclusive, limited rights for limited times. Not ownership.

When you buy a book, you read it, and give it to a friend to read it, it's a nice gesture, even if the author does not make more money.
When you buy a book, copy the content, reprint it, and sell it to your friend, you are a thief and scammer, because you are making money that should go to the author.

At the end, if you don't believe in immaterial rights, please provide us here with a link with all your films, videos, script that you ever created, and allow us to use it freely for our own gain. If you also provide a list of clients with it, we can try to bid lower than you on selling your own product back to them....

 

[AJ Aguirre]

All good points David. The one thing I'm having trouble with is where this differs from what Wooden Camera was doing in the early days (before RED just decided to embrace them).

Not taking a stand, just trying to see the order of things.

I would think that Wooden Camera's products would just be considered additional support items, not a vital piece for the camera to function as intended. Media on the other hand is vital.

 

[AJ Aguirre]

When you buy a book, you read it, and give it to a friend to read it, it's a nice gesture, even if the author does not make more money.
When you buy a book, copy the content, reprint it, and sell it to your friend, you are a thief and scammer, because you are making money that should go to the author.

Create better game player instead of cracking other's games. Create a better streaming software, instead of downloading torrent, and use whatever printer you want as long as you are satisfied with it. I never had a problem with anything that you mention, because I always paid and used proprietary systems.

At the end, if you don't believe in immaterial rights, please provide us here with a link with all your films, videos, script that you ever created, and allow us to use it freely for our own gain. If you also provide a list of clients with it, we can try to bid lower than you on selling your own product back to them....

Nailed it

 

[Elsie N]

I would think that Wooden Camera's products would just be considered additional support items, not a vital piece for the camera to function as intended. Media on the other hand is vital.

Not vital in that you can record without media, as some have pointed out.

To be clear, I'm in no way disparaging Wooden Camera... I love WC.

 

[Michael Hastings]

It's a thorny problem that has been going on for years.

Any of you use PCs (i.e. not MacIntosh)? - then you are using IP that was stolen just as JinniMag would appear to be doing. IBM had their proprietary BIOS (probably much more complicated and vital than whatever is in a miniMag) in the original IBM PC and a couple years later Compaq reverse engineered it and made IBM compatible computers that led the way for virtually every PC out there and Microsoft rich as well. Apple created there own BIOS.

Not condoning it and very unlikely to buy any unauthorized media for my Red (and I'm typing this on my Macbook Pro and edit on my MacPro)

but I'm also not thrilled that I'm completely locked out of alternative media and have to pay a very stiff premium for it. Red Minimag 240 $1400 Angel bird AVPro Cfast 240 ~$350 and the Cfast is used in that other high end camera with an A in its name that seems to be very popular in part because of its perceived reliability. Again, its media - a place to store 1s and 0s and there are some pretty capable companies making it - is it even possible that others could make even more reliable media? (probably not a noname startup) but companies like Samsung, Lexar, Intel, and others are pretty sophisticated at this point)

Again, not condoning this Jinnimag, but it would be nice if Red could be a little more aggressive in its media pricing if possible.

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

I kind of feel like if the media is bullet proof you can charge a premium, I have had some e sata issues with my pixe's that have turned me off from external media, I am using the only "recommended" media. If sound devices made a card for a bit more but was bullet proof I would have been all in.

 

[Michael Hastings]

I kind of feel like if the media is bullet proof you can charge a premium, I have had some e sata issues with my pixe's that have turned me off from external media, I am using the only "recommended" media. If sound devices made a card for a bit more but was bullet proof I would have been all in.

But I think that is where the frustration is - RED media is not a "bit more" it's 4 times as much. And it's not 4 times some small amount - one fairly comparable item is $350 and the RED item is more than $1000 more. Again, not saying RED shouldn't get a hefty premium - just lobbying for a little less hefty :wink5: I've always felt that it never hurts to ask.

 

[Steve DiMaggio]

I'll pay 4 times as much if its bullet proof, right now my Hyundai is having electrical issues at 90K miles, however any of the benz I have owned have been great, go figure, you get what you pay for, if you don't pay for it up front you'll pay for it in the end, wether it be 3rd party unapproved media RED will have to compete with and bring their standards down to compete or having to go back for a re shoot because your media was bad

Can't buy the benz and then complain about oil changes and high test

now if RED opened it op to 3rd party media I could see going with them all things equal, I personal deal in situations where things can't be reshot, part of the reason I have chose RED


BUUUUTTT if RED wants to do a price reduction, I am in for a couple 1TB mini mags lol

 

[Jarred Land]

but I'm also not thrilled that I'm completely locked out of alternative media and have to pay a very stiff premium for it. Red Minimag 240 $1400 Angel bird AVPro Cfast 240 ~$350 and the Cfast is used in that other high end camera with an A in its name that seems to be very popular in part because of its perceived reliability.

Arri won't let you use Cfast to record ARRIRAW on it's big boy cameras. For good reason. They also have their own proprietary recorder card ( XR cards ) that they have tested and are confident in to record at their best.

As much as using cheap media is romantic .. it's just not worth it.

As much as everyone thinks Cfast to work just great on everything if you actually read the other companies ( Arri etc. ) you would find an alarming amount of of issues with Cfast corruption.

https://www.arri.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=206&p=486

Canon even put out a warning for its customers not to use someCfast cards.. these type of warnings are pretty frequent.

https://www.dpreview.com/news/33077...-of-sandisk-cfast-cards-with-eos-1d-x-mark-ii

That was kinda a shitty deal because C300 only authorized Sandisk Cfast cards on its C300 cameras, because if you didn't use that card, guess what:

http://www.danmccomb.com/c300mkii-cfast-file-corruption-issue-and-one-tedious-solution/


And I'm not just picking on Cfast.. its any card that is not tested and programmed and put through an extensive QC process to make sure it works with your cameras.

And as much as you say " o if it is junk and doesn't work ill just ditch it" we all know that isn't the reality.

When you are shooting whatever your shooting and you get corruption and you need to tell the producer that hired your that you just lost his $10,000 , $100,000, $1,000,000 shot from corruption, Most of you will not say " sorry I used a shitty card, my fault" . Most of you will say " The RED camera corrupted the card " .

We are nowhere near perfect but 9 out of 10 times if a 3rd party product fails and brings the production down we get blamed for it. I'm not making that up... We get those stories every day. It's why I have such an allergic reaction to D-Taps. You would not believe how many people have plugged their D-Tap cables in backwards from their 3rd party batteries to their 3rd party monitors and blew up the monitors... and then proceed to call us and DEMAND that we pay for the replacement since the batteries were mounted on our cameras.

And the guy that just said that non-physical IP should just be free for everyone.... You are nuts. The entire filmmaking industry wouldn't exist.. RED wouldn't exist... this forum wouldn't exist... likely even the internet wouldn't exist if god forbid your dream land was a reality.

 

[Jarred Land]

But I think that is where the frustration is - RED media is not a "bit more" it's 4 times as much. And it's not 4 times some small amount - one fairly comparable item is $350 and the RED item is more than $1000 more. Again, not saying RED shouldn't get a hefty premium - just lobbying for a little less hefty :wink5: I've always felt that it never hurts to ask.

You do realize that we go through a lot of expense to get heavily screened memory and alot of testing goes into making sure it is the best available... that we make custom firmware specific to the cards and we have a pretty extensive QC and our development on media is pretty insane and go through many, many, man years of testing with a lot of engineers to pass all our media? You know that costs money right?

I just am shocked how some of you that I would expect to know how this all works really just don't get it.