Birger Lens Mount Reservations

[Paolo Tinari]

Hey we are not complaining about the Birgers!
Back on track guys, back on track...

 

[Jason Ing]

Precise collimation of the pl mount on the RED is not an easy task even for experienced people - some of the traditional methods for a film camera can't be used because of the OLP filter among other things - and it is hard for a newbie or those coming from the video world to feel confident they have it precisely. (You can tell when you have it close, but close isn't necessarily good enough for 4K)

Part of the more intense software design is creating a relatively easy method for us users to do collimation. Erik has pretested several wide zooms and created a part of the software that with a few cycles of focus/zoom and checking the values that the lens is sending out, the software lets you know precisely when you hit it.

Since RED gets there hands on every camera before it goes out, they can have a sophisticated collimation setup to quickly set every camera up before it goes out (and then you are on your own in the future). This isn't practical for Birger, so he had to come up with a good way for us to do this ourselves. The bonus is now that he has created it, we can check it at anytime and be confident we are dead on.

Great. Thanks Aqua.

 

[geoff tompkinson]

Can someone remind me what the latest fantasy date is for anyone to actually take deliveries of a Birger mount ?

I dip into this thread every month or so and it always seems to be another week or so away.

Whilst I have absolutely no problem with Birger taking as long as they like to complete this device and ensure it is working well before delivery. I just don't understand the incredible level of patience from most of the people waiting with regards to the continuous stream of "next week" postings.

Why can't they simply give a realistic estimate of the time remaining before shipping is likely to start. At least people could then make informed decisions about how to proceed.

I've never experienced anything close to this level of inaccuracy in my life.

 

[Jason Sinclair]

Well i have dealt with it from a realist percpective. Knowing murphies law always helps. One thing a lot of people who have not been following the progress closely do not know is that there was the first stage (eric introduced the concept) and then got a lot of feedback on improving the devise. So he had to go back and redesign (he didn't have to, he could have gone ahead with an inferior design). At the same time red made some of their own changes which meant another redesign. Then there was manufacturing problems and i think this always occurs when you are rushed, in fact it occurs anyway. It's a new product. Designing things is one thing but then that working in the real world is another. So there is backwards and forward between all these different elements. Anyone that has ever made or manufactured something knows this. The fact that eric didn't go ahead and release a product that wasn't ready is his way. It's a way i like. Consumers are sometimes blinded to the processes and we have had a unique experience in this case (as with anyone that has followed red for the last two years) of
being involved with this organic process. The benifits of the involvement is the feedback the manufacturer gets directly from the hive mind of the consumers. As can be seen with reds development, it produces much superior products. I personally prefer this way of manufacturing compared to more traditional ways. In the past there was no mass level communication process where manufacturers could communicate with consumers.

These processes and the problems that arrise are a fact of life. Sony and canon etc.. etc.. go through the same dilemmas, we just don't see it because they make a product they think the consumer will buy or that will be one step up on their competitors. They don't involve the consumers at this stage.

I think this is the first time eric has done this process and i'm sure when he finally gets some time to rest he will sit back and reflect on doing a few things differently in the future.

I like many others am willing to be patient because a few years of using a great product fades into comparison of waiting a few months. What has involved out of this organic process, is something revolutionary and i think we can see this will be worth the wait. We know that in the Birger headquaters are hundreds if not thousands of units ready to be assembled and mosy likely a few last minute problems.

It may be another month or two? It may be any week. no one knows that not even eric. We know we are on the last legs though... That is for sure.

 

[Dallas Zhen]

I think he(Eric) might don’t want an uncompleted product. Is much better send all the finished product takes much longer rather than ask everyone to send it back from time to time for perfection. Which cost much more time and money for both ends.

So, if people thinking in this way, people waiting longer NOW, and less hassle for future. Hope I guess right this time.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Indeed. Now let him to work!

 

[Mark B.]

It may be another month or two? It may be any week. no one knows that not even eric. We know we are on the last legs though... That is for sure.

Eric should know the expected completion date of the mounts, at least this far in the development process he should have a fairly close estimate. That's why there's so much frustration. A few delays are expected, but it's been several months of delays, always with the mounts shipping "next week". We need real estimates, not pacification estimates.

So, with deadlines looming closer and closer, I ask again, please, what is the expected shipping date for the mount?

 

[Martin Weiss]

So, with deadlines looming closer and closer, I ask again, please, what is the expected shipping date for the mount?

I don't want to sound negative, but from past performance I would say:

Cover your back, and order a Nikon Mount for $500 and some Nikon zoom. At least the latter one you should be able to sell without loss once the Birger hits the road.

I think you would feel much worse if you'd believe the next "shipping tomorrow" only to be disappointed again and missing the deadline.

Better safe than sorry.

 

[Joe D'Arcy]

So, with deadlines looming closer and closer, I ask again, please, what is the expected shipping date for the mount?

Would you believe, that at this very moment, thousands of birger mounts are in Fed EX trucks shipping out to eagerly awaiting Red owners... How about - there are hundreds ready to be assembled at this very moment... would you believe - an enthusiastic boyscout will take your order soon.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Why can't they simply give a realistic estimate of the time remaining before shipping is likely to start. At least people could then make informed decisions about how to proceed.

I've never experienced anything close to this level of inaccuracy in my life.

How about the REDONE, or the RED Nikon "dumb" mount, or the RED canon fd mount? Or the RED EVF, or longer LCD cables, or 16:9 shooting and quicktime that works, ...

You saw this level of inaccuracy in this same product sphere - and from a company that was founded by someone that literally has a billion dollars behind him. Not criticizing RED, just trying to make a point - that when you have a small (in Erik's case maybe a 2-man) development team, and parts that are made outside, any small glitch can require a new goaround that can take days or weeks - so the only "realistic" estimate is either extremely far in the future, or just "when it's done it's done."

supernova really nailed it a few posts back, and if you haven't followed the development it is a must read.

I'm in pretty close contact with Erik, as his product is a major development for my underwater users, and I believe he is doing everything he can and is within days of shipping the first batch and not many days after that for volume shipping.

 

[Martin Weiss]

I guess what is frustrating is that all the times we get messages a la "Sorry that we missed the last promised deadline, we had a problem with xxx. Now we are back on track and will start shipping by monday." Then a week passes with no messages whatsoever. And then comes another reason for a delay.

This constant building up of hopes followed by a let-down cannot be good for anyone.

Why not - as suggested multiple times before - have a quick semi-daily notice of how things are going. And let us know right away of delays, not making those poor paperweight-Red guys hope that maybe they will get something in their mail today.

It's almost like with Frank Sinatra. In the end his death had been announced so many times, that no one believed it really when he did pass away. Both Sinatra and Birger Mount are great in their fields, but shouldn't get ruined by misleading messages.

 

[Frank Weeks]

I believe he is doing everything he can and is within days of shipping the first batch and not many days after that for volume shipping.

I am sitting here reading Reduser, my Red on a tripod behind me, waiting for the Birger mount to convert it to my dream machine. I know I should be angry about the delays but having met and talked with Eric several times at NAB, I'm not. My gut feeling then and now is, this guy just wants to get it right. Knowing how well it worked at NAB, I know we are in for a treat.

But please Eric. Hurry!!!

 

[Harmonica]

How about the REDONE, or the RED Nikon "dumb" mount, or the RED canon fd mount? Or the RED EVF, or longer LCD cables, or 16:9 shooting and quicktime that works, ...

You saw this level of inaccuracy in this same product sphere - and from a company that was founded by someone that literally has a billion dollars behind him. Not criticizing RED, just trying to make a point - that when you have a small (in Erik's case maybe a 2-man) development team, and parts that are made outside, any small glitch can require a new goaround that can take days or weeks - so the only "realistic" estimate is either extremely far in the future, or just "when it's done it's done."

supernova really nailed it a few posts back, and if you haven't followed the development it is a must read.

I'm in pretty close contact with Erik, as his product is a major development for my underwater users, and I believe he is doing everything he can and is within days of shipping the first batch and not many days after that for volume shipping.

I called Erik last Thursday to get an update, and he proudly told me that the first mounts had shipped that morning! He asked me not to post anything because he was planning a big post himself for later that day. Now it sounds like nothing in fact shipped! :huh:

As I have stated before, the difference between Red and Birger is that when Jim isn't going to hit a deadline, he lets us know on or before that deadline.

I have complete faith in Erik's ability to pull this thing off, and when he does, he'll be hailed as a hero. In the meantime, it is extremely frustrating when he's always going dark on us. Jim NEVER goes dark on us. Any comparison to Red is just not fair.

I'll give Erik the benefit of the doubt, that maybe what he meant was that the mounts were sitting on the front step waiting to be picked up, and when he caught the software bug, he pulled them and cancelled the shipments. All I'm saying is that Erik could easily make this experience a lot less frustrating if he would even just have the receptionist, his mom, the lawn service man, or WHOEVER just type up some brief updates more often :mail1:

 

[Joe Vinson]

I called Erik last Thursday to get an update, and he proudly told me that the first mounts had shipped that morning! He asked me not to post anything because he was planning a big post himself for later that day. Now it sounds like nothing in fact shipped! :huh:

As I have stated before, the difference between Red and Birger is that when Jim isn't going to hit a deadline, he lets us know on or before that deadline.

I have complete faith in Erik's ability to pull this thing off, and when he does, he'll be hailed as a hero. In the meantime, it is extremely frustrating when he's always going dark on us. Jim NEVER goes dark on us. Any comparison to Red is just not fair.

I'll give Erik the benefit of the doubt, that maybe what he meant was that the mounts were sitting on the front step waiting to be picked up, and when he caught the software bug, he pulled them and cancelled the shipments. All I'm saying is that Erik could easily make this experience a lot less frustrating if he would even just have the receptionist, his mom, the lawn service man, or WHOEVER just type up some brief updates more often :mail1:

I agree 100%. When Erik says he'll be shipping in volume within a day or two, then tells us months later about how some part just arrived or that he just learned some production machine, I have to assume one of two things: either he is woefully incompetent with regards to production timelines, or he was intentionally misstating the reality of his situation. Either way, it ain't good.

 

[Kenn Christenson]

To be fair, Birger's not the only company who's had to delay their products. Redrock Micro has delayed their Matte Box for the Red, numerous times, with little or no notice.

It's gotta be tough, when you're a small shop, building something so complicated from the ground up, with constantly moving objectives and changing requirements.

 

[M Hsu]

it's true, that guerilla 35 adapter for HD cams was in development since 2005 oh wait.. they're still taking pre-orders..... boy. the people waiting for that thing... they must be angry people... you wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

 

[Meryem Ersoz]

Two things shut me up about complaining about the Birger: 1) seeing the demo at NAB -- this thing will be uber-cool and 2) Erik caught up with order processing, at least I know that one will get here eventually.

My biggest concern is that the customer service track record is poor enough that if something goes wrong, will it ever be addressed?

Shipping product is one thing, servicing it is another beast entirely, with even more moving parts added to the mix.

I really think that waiting on this mount for an existing RED is a huge mistake. I can wait indefinitely because I already own the Canon lenses with no intention of selling them. And I own a pair of PL lenses while I wait.

It has been said several times, but it bears repeating. If your camera is currently a doorstep, buy a cheap alternative (Nikon) and then re-sell it -- you should have no problem with re-sell because RED is resuming the shipment of new cameras, and it should be fairly easy to unload a Nikon lens and Nikon mount to the next rounds of new camera owners.

I have already had to have the motherboard replaced in #1008, and another RED user here locally had to do the same. It's a big mistake to watch your warranty drip-drip away while you don't use your camera. These cameras need to be tested and used, it's a new technology.

 

[Harmonica]

Two things shut me up about complaining about the Birger: 1) seeing the demo at NAB -- this thing will be uber-cool and 2) Erik caught up with order processing, at least I know that one will get here eventually.

My biggest concern is that the customer service track record is poor enough that if something goes wrong, will it ever be addressed?

Shipping product is one thing, servicing it is another beast entirely, with even more moving parts added to the mix.

I really think that waiting on this mount for an existing RED is a huge mistake. I can wait indefinitely because I already own the Canon lenses with no intention of selling them. And I own a pair of PL lenses while I wait.

It has been said several times, but it bears repeating. If your camera is currently a doorstep, buy a cheap alternative (Nikon) and then re-sell it -- you should have no problem with re-sell because RED is resuming the shipment of new cameras, and it should be fairly easy to unload a Nikon lens and Nikon mount to the next rounds of new camera owners.

I have already had to have the motherboard replaced in #1008, and another RED user here locally had to do the same. It's a big mistake to watch your warranty drip-drip away while you don't use your camera. These cameras need to be tested and used, it's a new technology.

Don't forget about the PL tilt-shift lens from Lensbabies!

 

[M Hsu]

actually that's a really good point. How many of you are buying 2 birger mounts with one as a spare? I might just get the RED nikon dumb mount with some lenses to use as an emergency backup. There are some really sweet deals on older nikon lenses.

 

[A. Bastaki]

yea guys,, uncle sam sais shut it... so shut it