ARRI ALEXA LF - 4k, FullFrame announced

[Mike P.]

I second that.

And here is why you like it so much

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camgear/what-alexa-and-watercolors-have-in-common.html

I remember reading about that years ago (like before that dvinfo article -- back in like MX vs Alexa on Boyle's site) and wondering why other manufactures (especially RED) couldn't be doing the same thing (either in-camera or in post-processing/development, kinda like IPP2). It's not a secret and it certainly seems to make sense (from a film emulation perspective), so couldn't Graeme whip up a FilmEmulationPipeline transform that does the same thing with .r3ds?

I mean, hell, IPP2 corrals out of gamut colours; this would be the same just with a saturation/brightness transform on colours that are "in-gamut", no? (Or is there some kind of hardware/sensor voodoo that allows Alexa pull it off so well?) To be honest, I think IPP2 was already a step in the Arri direction... Going full-blown Alexa mode, wouldn't be a bad thing for all existing .r3ds....

It seems to me to the only criticisms being levelled at the ALF are "4k is bare minimum nowadays", which isn't really a valid excuse to not like what it actually provides.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

And here is why you like it so much


http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camgear/what-alexa-and-watercolors-have-in-common.html

Good article, but it is much more complex than that.

It's not a secret and it certainly seems to make sense (from a film emulation perspective),

And it's no way near sufficient.
Red's base color science already does that plus IPP2 LUTs. As do other camera makers.

I mean, hell, IPP2 corrals out of gamut colours; this would be the same just with a saturation/brightness transform on colours that are "in-gamut", no?

No.

"Just" is a term which tends to roll over the tongue easily to oversimplify the unknown.
There is no "just" in signal shaping and colour science. It would be great if it was that easy.

(Or is there some kind of hardware/sensor voodoo that allows Alexa pull it off so well?)

Both.

To be honest, I think IPP2 was already a step in the Arri direction... Going full-blown Alexa mode, wouldn't be a bad thing for all existing .r3ds....

"Full blown Alexa mode" = unrealistic

A solution which brings the good stuff out of the image and meets many desires is already made.
Though it needs a wider horizon to be perceived.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I would argue that the Genesis, while first to embrace that aesthetic, wasn't really what we now refer to as a digital camera. It was an HD video camera, it recorded on HD videotape (at least until they came out with a digital recorder, although that was basically modeled on videotape), and its only output was HD video. Its primary innovations were the use of a single CCD (rather than 3 of them) with a striped color filter pattern, made to an image size very close to S35mm film, its resulting ability to use 35mm cinema lenses, and its use of log encoding. All very significant in terms of mimicking a film aesthetic, but still a video camera. In my opinion, the first real "digital camera" as we now know it was likely the Arri D21 (and to a lesser degree the D20), which had a Bayer sensor and recorded RAW. Those two things have largely defined all "digital" cameras since. There was also the Dalsa Origin, which was the first "real" 4K camera. Impractical and ultimately unsuccessful, but it did precede Red by about 2 years. But I think it's fair to say that until the Alexa, there was a rather significant perceived difference between a "film" and a "digital" aesthetic, at least to most cinematographers.

Where do you put the wiper in that line up. Thats was quite widely used here before RED alexa and the the others.

One thing though, here pretty much all film cameras was Arri´s, I had a mitchell S-35 and there was some other options but AC´pretty much only know how to put film into arri cameras. Then moving to digital I think a lot of the DP´s and AC´s just felt comfortable with the alexas in a way they did not with the RED´s that status have not changed.
Even though Arri have had their batch of upgrades and complications over the years with external raw recorders and strange camera builds like the M and lots of different sensor options, spinning mirrors etc. It always seamed like the AC´could keep up with it. Sticking a red in the hands of the same guys usually makes them look offended. Like some one using mac all of a sudden was told to swap to PC. And I actually think its that simple professional AC´s feels more comfy around the arris as thats what they are used to and for the part they very much behaves like their old 435's.

But I like to be the Mitchel S-35 kind of guy who wants to do what every one else does.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

Where do you put the wiper in that line up. Thats was quite widely used here before RED alexa and the the others.

Good point. Zodiac and Benjamin Button were shot with a Viper. 3-chip CCD. As good as it got back then.

Sticking a red in the hands of the same guys usually makes them look offended. Like some one using mac all of a sudden was told to swap to PC.

The first two generation of RED cameras were more like a Silicon Graphics computer from the '90s, and the Alexa was kind of like the PowerPC Macs. Now, Weapon is like a modern Mac Pro, and Alexa is like an iMac. The Alexa 65 is like a big PC server - it's not something you want to bring out of the basement.

 

[Brian Merlen]

My criticisms of the LF

1 I want it but can't currently afford a seventh arri
2 no new sensor... it's like it'll never come lol
3 they had to make it larger to meet 4K but doing so ignores s35 legacy needs while simultaneously it's not "large enough" because pixels are so big to even resolve much given the science behind debayering and it's obvious loss in resolution. It has all the deficiencies of the red one in that sense because after debayering it's not even close to UHD in terms of three pass film processing vs debayered bayer patterns. The links I posted address it in depth
4 no mini version and my older heavy arris kill my back


I still want it despite my issues with it. I had issues with them uprezzing too but still bought the Amira and mini anyway. Hey I might be biased but I'm not crazy! These arris make tons of cash like my 8k reds

I remember reading about that years ago (like before that dvinfo article -- back in like MX vs Alexa on Boyle's site) and wondering why other manufactures (especially RED) couldn't be doing the same thing (either in-camera or in post-processing/development, kinda like IPP2). It's not a secret and it certainly seems to make sense (from a film emulation perspective), so couldn't Graeme whip up a FilmEmulationPipeline transform that does the same thing with .r3ds?

I mean, hell, IPP2 corrals out of gamut colours; this would be the same just with a saturation/brightness transform on colours that are "in-gamut", no? (Or is there some kind of hardware/sensor voodoo that allows Alexa pull it off so well?) To be honest, I think IPP2 was already a step in the Arri direction... Going full-blown Alexa mode, wouldn't be a bad thing for all existing .r3ds....

It seems to me to the only criticisms being levelled at the ALF are "4k is bare minimum nowadays", which isn't really a valid excuse to not like what it actually provides.

 

[Björn Benckert]

My criticisms of the LF

1 I want it but can't currently afford a seventh arri
2 no new sensor... it's like it'll never come lol
3 they had to make it larger to meet 4K but doing so ignores s35 legacy needs while simultaneously it's not "large enough" because pixels are so big to even resolve much given the science behind debayering and it's obvious loss in resolution. It has all the deficiencies of the red one in that sense because after debayering it's not even close to UHD in terms of three pass film processing vs debayered bayer patterns. The links I posted address it in depth
4 no mini version and my older heavy arris kill my back


I still want it despite my issues with it. I had issues with them uprezzing too but still bought the Amira and mini anyway. Hey I might be biased but I'm not crazy! These arris make tons of cash like my 8k reds

Curious, How often is you M out these days?

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I second that.

This must be the first time, we are on the same page Chris, what's wrong with you ;-)

And here is why you like it so much



http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camgear/what-alexa-and-watercolors-have-in-common.html

Disagreements with me are generally just illusions :tongue_smilie: hahahaha

But yeah, that link describes what I'm doing with my Weapon Dragon when grading. Generally with Red I pull out saturation out of highlights and shadows while adjusting the hue vs sat, reducing yellow, red and some magenta and once again doing that with the skin tones as a secondary. It helps reducing the flat nature of the colors over the DR, but it's still not in the same ballpark as Alexa colors.

 

[Justin Hannewyk]

Very interested in this camera. Thanks for posting this information, Following!

 

[David J. Buchanan]

It's funny how y'all talk about debayering like that matters. I just looked up Whiplash and it was shot at 1080p. I still think the biggest difference in whether to buy or not is the post. R3D vs ARRIRAW. I film I just shot recently is gonna do wonders because of R3D, but that's because our budget was limit on lights, so post is gonna have to do a a lot of grading. However, if the budget was even 10x shooting Weapon, Prores would have been WAY more effiencent.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

It's funny how y'all talk about debayering like that matters. I just looked up Whiplash and it was shot at 1080p. I still think the biggest difference in whether to buy or not is the post. R3D vs ARRIRAW. I film I just shot recently is gonna do wonders because of R3D, but that's because our budget was limit on lights, so post is gonna have to do a a lot of grading. However, if the budget was even 10x shooting Weapon, Prores would have been WAY more effiencent.

You can shoot prores on a Red if that's an issue.

 

[Björn Benckert]

It's funny how y'all talk about debayering like that matters. I just looked up Whiplash and it was shot at 1080p. I still think the biggest difference in whether to buy or not is the post. R3D vs ARRIRAW. I film I just shot recently is gonna do wonders because of R3D, but that's because our budget was limit on lights, so post is gonna have to do a a lot of grading. However, if the budget was even 10x shooting Weapon, Prores would have been WAY more effiencent.

Just so you know: When shooting Alexa 1080P it does a really good debayer and downsampling from native raw resolution to 1080p internally before compression to prores. Alexa never captured in 1080p even though it recored 1080p. That makes differens and it matters. So it´s not to be compared with other cameras that capture 1080p those cameras would look way worse as they also debayer at that resolution and don't benefit from downsampling.

 

[Marc Wielage]

It's funny how y'all talk about debayering like that matters. I just looked up Whiplash and it was shot at 1080p. I still think the biggest difference in whether to buy or not is the post. R3D vs ARRIRAW. I film I just shot recently is gonna do wonders because of R3D, but that's because our budget was limited on lights, so post is gonna have to do a a lot of grading.

Be aware that there's a point in post where it's not so much grading as it is salvaging. Big difference between the two. My advice: use more light.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

i dunno... if someone has trouble setting the stop on a critical shot, maybe you shouldnt be shooting professionally, especially in this day and age where we have had plenty of latitude for a solid decade now

Mistakes happen. Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned professional. And DR is very important out of doors. RED sensors have more DR than ARRI sensors. Again: the audience doesn't need to care. But the crew does.

I had issues with them uprezzing too but still bought the Amira and mini anyway. Hey I might be biased but I'm not crazy! These arris make tons of cash like my 8k reds

Absolutely. I'd never use Alexas voluntarily, but damn, I'd sure as hell rent them out. If people want to pay real money for Alexas, you should exploit that as much as possible!

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

It's funny how y'all talk about debayering like that matters. I just looked up Whiplash and it was shot at 1080p. I still think the biggest difference in whether to buy or not is the post. R3D vs ARRIRAW. I film I just shot recently is gonna do wonders because of R3D, but that's because our budget was limit on lights, so post is gonna have to do a a lot of grading.

Regardless of some recent popular DoP choices, grading is not supposed to replace lighting but complement it.


What Marc said.

Be aware that there's a point in post where it's not so much grading as it is salvaging. Big difference between the two. My advice: use more light.

 

[Milano Questa]

Mistakes happen. Whether you're a beginner or a seasoned professional. And DR is very important out of doors. RED sensors have more DR than ARRI sensors. Again: the audience doesn't need to care. But the crew does.

Don't talk bullshit. My goodness, I've heard very stupid things by professionals, and I'm just lost for words.

Do you even own a Red? Have you ever used an Arri camera? Arri has more DR than Red. Not even Monstro surpasses Alev3 in DR.

 

[Sergio Perez]

All I know is that I want a Monstro right now but still can’t afford it! Damn it.
I tell you, put it in my hands and no one will argue which one is better anymore.
I would show how great the Monstro really is.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Don't talk bullshit. My goodness, I've heard very stupid things by professionals, and I'm just lost for words.

Do you even own a Red? Have you ever used an Arri camera? Arri has more DR than Red. Not even Monstro surpasses Alev3 in DR.

True and not true from what I understand and tested myself (I'm not a tech master so I don't have the math on it, but what I've experienced while grading both), the Alexa and Red has similar DR, it's just that the internal DR handling is different on the Alexa and it handles the rolloff into shadows better (rolloff into highlights works the same in IPP2) while rolloff into highlights works in conjuncture with how it process colors over the DR range. Arri points out that it has 14+ stops, which is a description of what I assume to be the workable DR while the extra stops makes up the rolloff handling. The Monstro says 17+ stops, but I believe it to be meassured to all DR stops regardless of rolloff.
With some clever tweaking in IPP2 you might come close to the Alexa DR style, but there are so many parameters to make that happen that it's almost impossible to just create a conversion LUT that makes Red look like Alexa. This needs to be done more internally, like with the DXL and Light Irons colors science.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Curious, How often is you M out these days?

Almost never now but I keep it at home to shoot on personally. My Classic has a broken board and cant record intensely so both live with me instead of in sublease land. So my M is my overcrank or 4/3 unit and my Classic is my shoulder mount 60fps only one. So I'm happy between the two but suspect my Classic will die soon fully one day and it's not worth repairing so my M is likely going to become my full time rig cuz I only keep these two on me and try to rent them myself since no one wants them now to indies. M is a weird camera man lol but yea if I get an LF I'd rent it and not even use it at all like all my newer inventory essentially

Other then upgrading my reds I hardly see them honestly. That's why I look forward to H1 so much too, anything to stop breaking my back on these heavy arris!

 

[Antony Newman]

A qualification is required here.

Prior to Monstro
+) Arri's excellent signal to noise ratio (out of the box) had meant the usable dynamic range was felt to surpass RED's.
+) RED's sensor may however been able to record (buried in noise) a higher absolute dynamic range than the Arri.

Red Monstro
+) We have not seen a new DR Test for the Monstro.
+) We have not seen how effective the new Signal-to-Noise smoothing algorithm that Arri is use for the LF. With a greater resolution (ie 'fatter') negative - they can trade absolute image resolution for signal to noise - increasing the effective usable dynamic range available (out of the box).

AJ

<snip> Arri has more DR than Red. Not even Monstro surpasses Alev3 in DR.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

With some clever tweaking in IPP2 you might come close to the Alexa DR style, but there are so many parameters to make that happen that it's almost impossible to just create a conversion LUT that makes Red look like Alexa.

No need in chasing Alexa look for Red to look fantastic and on the same level.

Alexa also looses its potential in standard route, btw.

This needs to be done more internally, like with the DXL and Light Irons colors science.

There is always room for improvements internally of course, but base colour science is already very good and allows excellent final results.

Proper transform LUTs work nicely.