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Small-time producer looking for slowmo and 4K - RED ONE MX vs. Sony FS700

A

Alex Ezorsky-Lie

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I am a small production company who has a range of work from events to interviews, to music videos and VFX. I am personally more interested in producing music videos/VFX creative work and am therefore running into issues with using mere DSLR's and I just sold my HVX200 used mainly for events.

I was falling in love with the FS700 due to the high FPS and relatively low cost. But when considering the fact that the 4K upgrade costs will be another 11 thousand dollars I started looking at my options.The scarlet is the camera everyone is talking about. But I became more interested in the RED ONE MX when I found out that its cost is much closer to the FS700 than the scarlet AND it can shoot in twice the resolution as the scarlet when filming in slowmo.I've been doing a lot of research and there are many pros and cons of each when considering a RED ONE vs. an FS700.

It almost seems like an odd comparison when you consider that the RED ONE is a real cinema camera and the FS700 is basically prosumer eye-candy, but for someone in my specific situation, where there is an interest in high resolution and framerate, while maintaining relatively low cost and user friendliness, then the comparison makes sense.My question is whether anyone here in similar shoes or who can put themselves in mine, might be able to weigh in on which is a better choice. Here is what I am thinking:

FS700

PROS:
- Lens conversion and smart lens usage relatively easy (I have a lot of canon's)
- Workflow very easy
- Camera user friendliness and grab-'n-shoot ability are much higher
- Dynamic range seems pretty nice- SHOOTS VERY HIGH FPS even in 1080p
- potentially high demand for rental

CONS:
- 4K is insanely overpriced, complicated, proprietary, and possibly low bitrate.
- AVCHD is lame compared to RAW

RED ONE MX

PROS:
- Very sturdy build
- Modular setup allows for longer lifespan and customizability
- Shoots up to 4K
- Workflow is relatively simple compared to other 4K systems
- Shoots in RAW
- Shoots up to 120fps at 2K
- High demand for rental

CONS:
- Heavy, difficult to setup.
- Not good for grab-n-shoot productions
- lens system very expensive and may require Girber lens adapter
- Unable to shoot 2K scaled (full sensor usage recorded at 2K)
- 2K footage including high speed, is all with a massive sensor crop meaning no wide angle slowmo
- 4K footage very storage needy- Accessories relatively costly.


THANKS!

PS. I was playing with a gopro the other day, and this tiny $400 cube can shoot 4K and up to 120fps. Am I crazy or does this suggest that 4K and high speed are becoming more available than current camera costs are leading us to believe?
 
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Alex Ezorsky-Lie said:
PS. I was playing with a gopro the other day, and this tiny $400 cube can shoot 4K and up to 120fps. Am I crazy or does this suggest that 4K and high speed are becoming more available than current camera costs are leading us to believe?
Click to expand...

The Gopro only shoots upto 15fps at 4K, and 120fps at 720. Just to be clear. But yes, its awesome...
 
Alex,

You are forgeting some isues, 12bit on the R1 vs 8bit on FS700, that is extremely important...

About GoPro, its a nice toy, I have a Black Edition, but you cant compare it to R1 or FS700, will be good for very specific shots, nothing more...
 
used them all recently. I would not suggest that getting the fs700 as a future 4k camera is worth it.. you could buy both it AND an R1 for the price of a 4K updated FS700 package.

Build quality in the R1 feels better. but by no means is it a grab and go camera. If you drop the Sony even once, I bet it will require major repairs.


Also, the very high fps on the 700 is a little tricky for use on non-standard def projects. Don't know if the offboard recorder will help or not.
 
I use both. The FS700 slow mo blows the Red One away when using over 60 fps.

When not using slow mo, the One has a much more professional image, and Raw without any add-ons.

if I had to choose between the two for a production company, the One would be a no brainer unless you strictly shoot high speed footage.
 
Yeah used both... @Ryan is right, I would go with the R1, both cameras aren't the most friendly to use. Well... If you want a more professional image with any camera you'll need some sort of stabilization rig (shoulder, tripod), but you can strip some stuff and keep the R1 not that heavy. Actually it's a mistake people I think don't have the camera, only rented, usually say. It's not heavy at all if you know what to put on the camera. If only the monitor and SSD, it's not. When I want to go "light" I use the battery belt and only lens, FF, monitor and SSD and a good quality fader ND and IR. Bang!

The 11-16mm tokina is your best friend when doing 120fps 2k and the results are great!
 
Rent one when you need it. Chances are, this will be far more affordable than buying one, unless you're shooting every single week.
 
What lens adapter do you use to get the tokina on the R1?

Alex Mandarino said:
Yeah used both... @Ryan is right, I would go with the R1, both cameras aren't the most friendly to use. Well... If you want a more professional image with any camera you'll need some sort of stabilization rig (shoulder, tripod), but you can strip some stuff and keep the R1 not that heavy. Actually it's a mistake people I think don't have the camera, only rented, usually say. It's not heavy at all if you know what to put on the camera. If only the monitor and SSD, it's not. When I want to go "light" I use the battery belt and only lens, FF, monitor and SSD and a good quality fader ND and IR. Bang!

The 11-16mm tokina is your best friend when doing 120fps 2k and the results are great!
Click to expand...
 
Sonys depreciate super super fast. BH won't even take my 2 year old model, besides for free in a trade in. Something to consider...
 
Humberto Ramos said:
Alex,

You are forgeting some isues, 12bit on the R1 vs 8bit on FS700, that is extremely important...

About GoPro, its a nice toy, I have a Black Edition, but you cant compare it to R1 or FS700, will be good for very specific shots, nothing more...
Click to expand...


I like it your answer Humberto Ramos..

I love RED ;)
 
FS700 will probably be cheaper (it's comparatively ready to shoot out of the box) and with the right non-Sony off-board recorder (like the Odyssey) you can record 4k~raw for an additional ~$2.5k. Plus the FS700's sensor is objectively better than MX (~14stops, stupidly high FPS that uses the full-sensor, full-sensor downscale, and WAY better low-light... actually on paper better lowlight than Dragon.)

That said, it will have a traditional Sony look to it, but that shouldn't matter if going off-board.
 
This thread was great to see... These are the two cameras I've been comparing as an upgrade from my AF100 & hacked GH1. My main concern was with the added workflow of the RED systems raw files, but the DR and workability of 14bit vs 8bit just seems to be worth it.
 
Put it this way. I have never thought," damn... I wish this wasn't RAW!" I only think the opposite: "Damn it, I hate 8-bit DSLR footage! It falls apart to easy in post!"

Simply put, RED is the shizzzznit. RED RAW can be edited easily on a laptop in almost any NLE nowadays (Premiere, Avid MC, FCP X, Sony Vegas, etc.) I highly recommend Premiere though with a nice CUDA card from NVDIA ;-)
 
Mike P. said:
FS700 will probably be cheaper (it's comparatively ready to shoot out of the box) and with the right non-Sony off-board recorder (like the Odyssey) you can record 4k~raw for an additional ~$2.5k. Plus the FS700's sensor is objectively better than MX (~14stops, stupidly high FPS that uses the full-sensor, full-sensor downscale, and WAY better low-light... actually on paper better lowlight than Dragon.)

That said, it will have a traditional Sony look to it, but that shouldn't matter if going off-board.
Click to expand...

My understanding is that at present the Odyssey is not able to record RAW in 4K from the FS700, only DPX files.
It's not out quite yet tho so we shall see.

I wrote about it here if you want some more info on it:

http://www.redsharknews.com/product...0-can-now-use-the-odyssey-7q-as-a-4k-recorder

RAW does have some minor disadvantages in terms of needing the extra computing power for the debayer etc too which could be an issue on very low buget projects, so that is also worth keeping in mind.

The proper 4k route with the Sony add-ons may only be worth it if you plan on going down the route of getting an F5 or F55 further down the line, as obviously you will then already have the 4K RAW recorder for those cameras (It's the same recorder for FS700, F5 and F55)

Freya
 
One disadvantage is that the Red One is only available second hand but if you are looking at the second hand market anyway you will probably find the Red One is easier to find than an FS700.

The big advantage of the FS700 is definitely the high speed. It's fantastic in that aspect. It's easy to imagine using it alongside other cameras as just being the high speed camera. I think the high speed is definitely the main selling point on the FS700.

I actually think the FS700 is the most compelling camera from Sony at the moment.

I suspect it will come down basically to whether the Larger camera and the more intensive workflow of the Red One will fit in with the kind of projects you are working on.

Freya
 
Used them both.. they do different things
But, for my needs, I purchased the Red.
Why? I don't need the ultra high speed very often in my work.
I also did not want to use an external 4K recorder.
Ironically, to deliver a regular Prores or Dnxhd file, I need a "low res" offboard recorder, or to transcode

I was impressed at the wide variety of lens mounts available for the FS700.. Was not impressed with the physical toughness of the housing.

I keep learning more about my Red camera, and this system, and keep liking it better and better.
 
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