ARRI ALEXA LF - 4k, FullFrame announced

[M Most]

Netflix doesn't really care about real resolution (image information), as long as they can count 4k pixels.
After they compress the shit out of it for delivery, it doesn't mater anyway, since everything that might have bin there, goes out of the window anyway.

I mean - 16-18 mbit for 4K? - seriously?
.

If one is going to comment on Netflix, one must think like Netflix. Netflix does not live in the here and now. They live in the future. Everything in their production and delivery specifications is designed to not only create inventory of material that has its maximum future value, but to archive it in a way that is impervious to format obsolescence. What they are doing now is limited by currently available bandwidth and technology. That will ultimately be replaced by larger bandwidth and better technology, and Netflix knows it. They are trying to create product that, at least technically, will last for a long period of time. Today's shortcomings won't be tomorrow's. Like a certain camera company we know, they are thinking far ahead of virtually everyone else and doing something about it. So if you're judging them on what they do now, you're missing the larger point.

 

[David Peterson]

If Arri made this camera a 5K sensor for instance, it would actually destroy a fair bit of the market for the Alexa 65 that rents it purely for the 5K mode and they don't want to compete with themselves.

If Arri had done 5K then that meant only two options:

1) larger sensor size than FF35, which leads to it being a tough sell to the wider market due to the lack of lens choices/supply for that sensor size (and they already have a camera for that niche)

2) an entirely new sensor design from the ground up, which means a lot of risks and a lot of costs for Arri

 

[Frank Glencairn]

They live in the future. Everything in their production and delivery specifications is designed to not only create inventory of material that has its maximum future value, but to archive it in a way that is impervious to format obsolescence. What they are doing now is limited by currently available bandwidth and technology. That will ultimately be replaced by larger bandwidth and better technology, and Netflix knows it. They are trying to create product that, at least technically, will last for a long period of time. ....

So when we all finally have a huge bandwidth - that's around 2033 if we are lucky, judging from the track record - you saying Netflix is planning a classic channel, to feature vintage 15+ year old shows and films?

Side note (reality check), my actual bandwidth performance went down 40% in the last 10 years - so I get a bit more than half of the speed I had in 2008.
Assuming things always get better and faster, can be misleading - it also can get worse (and slower).

 

[Brian Merlen]

I wonder if Netflix will differentiate arri raw 3.2k vs in camera uprezzed UHD from the same sensor? I know cioni once presented on anamorphic adding pixels so you can maybe try that angle as well on older arris?

I apparently have six arris they wont even use so I'm interested in an LF for sure too. At this rate could be years before a new arri sensor drops, why wait?

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Agreed. But that isn't the point. To quote a commercial DP JP Summers, "Gear fucking matters." But gear is for crews, not for audiences. Audiences don't mind if it's RED or if it's Sony. But the crew will be thankful for the latitude of the RED if the stop is set wrong during a critical shot.

i dunno... if someone has trouble setting the stop on a critical shot, maybe you shouldnt be shooting professionally, especially in this day and age where we have had plenty of latitude for a solid decade now

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I have a question about the Alexa LF. When the Alexa LF is shooting with the included PL mount will it shoot a greater sensor size then the current XTs and minis. Or to ask the question another way to gain the added sensor size do you need to use the LPL lens mount. Dose the PL mount on the LF crop the sensor or can you still gain increased resolution and sensor size even when shooting with a standard PL mount?

S35mm lenses wich PL mount is made for aren't disigned to cover VV. If they do it's not in the sweet spot of the lens and could have some major lens artefacts.

They made a new mount and designed a series of new lenses to scope with their camera.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Side note (reality check), my actual bandwidth performance went down 40% in the last 10 years - so I get a bit more than half of the speed I had in 2008.

Hi Frank,

That sounds strange! How can that be (assuming you didn't choose cheaper and cheaper plans)?

 

[M Most]

I wonder if Netflix will differentiate arri raw 3.2k vs in camera uprezzed UHD from the same sensor?

It doesn't matter because they don't accept either one, at least for the primary camera.

 

[M Most]

So when we all finally have a huge bandwidth - that's around 2033 if we are lucky, judging from the track record - you saying Netflix is planning a classic channel, to feature vintage 15+ year old shows and films?

I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm simply saying that Netflix does not think in terms of what common practices are today, other than to require the best of what today's technology can produce so that it can be more easily adapted to what they think might be common practices in the future. It's a little hard to grasp if you haven't sat in meetings with them, but they rarely discuss things like LTO tape, physical storage, or HD. They accommodate all of those things, but they see those accommodations as very temporary. Personally, having been in a few meetings, I found their approach very freeing and somewhat mind boggling because they just don't see things the way any other distributor/studio/production company does.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Hmm,
To me it really looks tons better when the show is arri65, dragon or such and mastered in 4k for netflix. Are you sure you actually watch the netflix stuff in 4k, do you have their 4k contract and the right screen to go with it? Preferably dolby vision and large... As if you do and can not see the difference then I say you need to go by glasses.

Did you like the look of Altered Carbon? It was shot on Arri 65 but in 5K with Canon CN-E for wide shots at pretty much wide open. So, with the Alexa LF, that would end up almost the same at 4.5K open gate.

 

[Antony Newman]

So when we all finally have a huge bandwidth - that's around 2033 if we are lucky... <snip>

+) Various companies are pooling their best intellectual property to create a royalty free compression standard; they have already improved compression by 30% (for the same image quality) : https://bitmovin.com/av1/

+) Internet Service Providers are constantly upgrading their bandwidth. 2019 will bring with it more-reasonably priced high bandwidth (foundry 7nm) chippery that increase the speed of the backbone.

+) 5G rollout will continue in earnest in 2018 - with a ramp up in 2019. If cable companies don’t react fast enough, over the air bandwidth could provide a ‘far pipe’ for content delivery.

... I don’t think it will take till 2033 for high bandwidth.

AJ

 

[Misha Engel]

Did you like the look of Altered Carbon? It was shot on Arri 65 but in 5K with Canon CN-E for wide shots at pretty much wide open. So, with the Alexa LF, that would end up almost the same at 4.5K open gate.

Watched the UHD downresed to FullHD with the same bitrate on a plasma (pioneer KURO) but wasn't impressed like I was with Interstellar, there is a lot more than the camera that makes the picture.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Did you like the look of Altered Carbon? It was shot on Arri 65 but in 5K with Canon CN-E for wide shots at pretty much wide open. So, with the Alexa LF, that would end up almost the same at 4.5K open gate.

Yes, not the best looking show for sure but image quality shine trough at times. And yes it looks quite a bit better than Alexa upscale. But i think quite a bit of the VFX work for Altered carbon is made in lower resolution, me guessing. Also if they shot it 5k and downsampled... 6k and downsample might not seam like a big difference. But its quite a lot actually in terms of noise sampling. Same with RED if you go from 6k to UHD or if you go from 5k to UHD is quite a difference.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Did you like the look of Altered Carbon? It was shot on Arri 65 but in 5K with Canon CN-E for wide shots at pretty much wide open. So, with the Alexa LF, that would end up almost the same at 4.5K open gate.

Personally I do not like the look of Altered Carbon but that mainly comes from the grading choices that are quite harsh but that is their look that they created. Its hard to seperate from my reaction to the grade but I am not a fan of Full Frame gates and wide open on so many shots. With such cool art direction and lighting I need to see it and I feel robbed of information when it is so soft. Huge fan of full frame focus separation on wider lenses but less so on the longer lenses.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Personally I do not like the look of Altered Carbon but that mainly comes from the grading choices that are quite harsh but thats their look that they created. Its hard to seperate from my reaction to the grade but not a fan of Full Frame gates and wide open on so many shots. With such cool art direction and lighting I need to seat and I feel robbed of information if it all goes too soft. Huge fan of full frame focus separation on wider lenses but less so on the longer lenses.

I'm generally speaking of the downsample quality, resolution etc. Because there are arguments that the LF will look worse than the Monstro and while it's technically true, aesthetically the combination between Alexa colors and a good downsample is better than no Alexa colors and DR handling, with perfect downsample. Some arguments about the LF seems to be that it will look like crap in 4K compared to the Monstro. So far I'm not really convinced of this. These cameras aren't made for technical stuff, they're made for aesthetical reasons. In my opinion, the best looking movies so far haven't really been shot on Red, except for say Finchers stuff, but he's also a technical genius in that he knows how to utilize the system, most aren't. The best looking stuff that's been shot on digital have all been shot on Alexa if going by my personal list of movies. If people are honest in their aesthetical part of the brain and judge what we've seen coming out since the digital revolution, how many movies among the best looking stuff have been shot on Alexa?

 

[Björn Benckert]

I dont think people here think the LF will look like crap in UHD.Im sure it will look quite goid but in comparision, to me monstro has more to give.

Just the fact that the monstro sensor is so much bigger and still fits in the FF circle. Cinema is rarely shown in the aspect ratio the LF FF more likely FF monstro. I guess for Imax the LF format is good but then, still monstro create the same aspect ratio with a larger better resolving sensor patch.

That together, the resolution and the extra stops and light sensitivity and compressed raw makes monstro the bigger camera as I see it, even though its physicaly smaller. Which is quite an acomplishment.

To me Altered carbon is quite a good example stating the fact that camera or sensor does not make colors perfect. To me that whole show is not so well lit, or graded. Im not saying its bad but according to my taste Finsher could easily beat them in terms of looks and colors even if he would use a red one. So to me is very much so that its not much of the looks and colors that comes from this or that sensor, they can all be farely well matched and look spending in that regard if exposed properly and used right. Then they all give very good colors. But higher Resolution, wider DR and more sensitivity makes it easier to get there and that whats motor provide.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

+)
... I don’t think it will take till 2033 for high bandwidth.

Unless you live in a third world bandwidth country like Germany

 

[Frank Glencairn]

I'm generally speaking of the downsample quality, resolution etc. Because there are arguments that the LF will look worse than the Monstro and while it's technically true, aesthetically the combination between Alexa colors and a good downsample is better than no Alexa colors and DR handling, with perfect downsample. Some arguments about the LF seems to be that it will look like crap in 4K compared to the Monstro. So far I'm not really convinced of this. These cameras aren't made for technical stuff, they're made for aesthetical reasons. In my opinion, the best looking movies so far haven't really been shot on Red, except for say Finchers stuff, but he's also a technical genius in that he knows how to utilize the system, most aren't. The best looking stuff that's been shot on digital have all been shot on Alexa if going by my personal list of movies. If people are honest in their aesthetical part of the brain and judge what we've seen coming out since the digital revolution, how many movies among the best looking stuff have been shot on Alexa?

I second that.

This must be the first time, we are on the same page Chris, what's wrong with you ;-)

And here is why you like it so much

Alexa limits color saturation in highlights and mid-tones, something that most video cameras either don’t do or don’t do as well. ... Alexa color saturation locks once the luma value of any hue approaches middle gray. (Middle, or 18% gray, falls at 40% on a luma waveform.) As exposure increases beyond middle gray a hue will brighten but its saturation will remain the same.

I’m not sure it’s fair to say that Arri is “emulating” film so much as they are pursuing a film aesthetic in a digital medium. When Kennel talks about how the most saturated colors in film are also the darkest he seems to be referring to film in terms of it being a subtractive color medium. Video is inherently an additive color medium, and most video cameras embrace that aesthetic. That’s one of the reasons why film and video have such distinctive looks. Alexa seems to buck that trend by emulating the functionality of a subtractive color model in an additive color system.

http://www.dvinfo.net/article/production/camgear/what-alexa-and-watercolors-have-in-common.html

 

[Bill Totolo]

How quickly people forget. The Alexa has only existed for about 8 years. Essentially all "seasoned DP's" grew up with film. One reason they gravitated to the Alexa was it was the first of the digital cameras to come close to the film aesthetic in particular ways that appealed to film trained cinematographers in ways that Red and Sony did not.
"

I think an argument can be made for the Panavision Genesis/Sony F35 as " first of the digital cameras to come close to the film aesthetic", at least to my eye.

 

[M Most]

I think an argument can be made for the Panavision Genesis/Sony F35 as " first of the digital cameras to come close to the film aesthetic", at least to my eye.

I would argue that the Genesis, while first to embrace that aesthetic, wasn't really what we now refer to as a digital camera. It was an HD video camera, it recorded on HD videotape (at least until they came out with a digital recorder, although that was basically modeled on videotape), and its only output was HD video. Its primary innovations were the use of a single CCD (rather than 3 of them) with a striped color filter pattern, made to an image size very close to S35mm film, its resulting ability to use 35mm cinema lenses, and its use of log encoding. All very significant in terms of mimicking a film aesthetic, but still a video camera. In my opinion, the first real "digital camera" as we now know it was likely the Arri D21 (and to a lesser degree the D20), which had a Bayer sensor and recorded RAW. Those two things have largely defined all "digital" cameras since. There was also the Dalsa Origin, which was the first "real" 4K camera. Impractical and ultimately unsuccessful, but it did precede Red by about 2 years. But I think it's fair to say that until the Alexa, there was a rather significant perceived difference between a "film" and a "digital" aesthetic, at least to most cinematographers.