ARRI ALEXA LF - 4k, FullFrame announced

[Brian Merlen]

Brian, who are you trying to convince? Arri is a highly respected engineering company that has dominated the high end of production since the day the Alexa arrived. They do their homework, those who use their cameras generally love them, and their images are considered the reference standard by virtually all of the most respected cinematographers. On the Red side, well, this is RedUser. By definition about 90% or more of the people here consider Red to have products that are superior to everything else. So you're not going to sway the minds of either side regardless of what arguments you come up with. There are no "gotchas" in this conversation. People like what they like. And if those they are doing work for accept what they are creating, there is no issue.

Numbers only mean something when they're either overwhelming or part of a required spec. When it comes to theoretical vs. actual images, the actual images are the only criteria.

I just find it incredibly funny to use the same anti red one argument now all these years later against LF. It's like they wrote the script for me and all I do is repeat their former concerns but now it's about their specs? I still want to buy one of them and two of my arris can do the non Netflix compliant uprezzing. So I'm not really picking sides here, too many arris to bias me, I just find it too funny not to mention it. Wish I could tell the Netflix compliance guys about this and how it should impact the spec lol

 

[jordan levy]

With that client in particular, Netflix, there's a big difference between what they are acquiring and what they are producing. Acquisitions they are a bit more flexible, especially since so much of their library isn't 4K. In whatever situation I would suggest you be honest if you want to keep building that relationship.

Remember, Netflix has tiers that they provide to consumers and people pay a premium for UHD 4K content. On their produced content they are rather firm to get the most out of their dollar to both finish in 4K and provide that to their broadest customer base with the best possible viewing experience.

I totally understand this phil, though when acquiring they are willing to pay more for it when it's 4k, so the question stands, how can they tell if it's been upscaled in camera? is there a way to tell?

 

[Brian Merlen]

I don't think they can tell. It says Uhd on all the files lol

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

the only thing that matters is story..

the average viewer most likely wouldnt be able to see or know a difference between a sony a7s and the new alexa or monstro..
Red one quality, epic quality, alexa ev.. are all still QUALITY.. we can add more ks or this and that, but honestly image technology is kinda peaked. at this point its just marketing..

in my opinion

 

[Phil Holland]

I totally understand this phil, though when acquiring they are willing to pay more for it when it's 4k, so the question stands, how can they tell if it's been upscaled in camera? is there a way to tell?

There is if they are looking for it.

 

[Brian Boyer]

Though, what reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally should be noted is that upscaling is a no go and honestly trying to push that to professionals was about as questionable as feeding kids cardboard and telling them it was cereal.

You mean Cardboardy-O's wasn't real cereal? Are you sure? I even remember when they came out with extra corrugation. I need to have a serious talk with my dad.

 

[jordan levy]

There is if they are looking for it.

got it, thanks!

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

the average viewer most likely wouldnt be able to see or know a difference between a sony a7s and the new alexa or monstro..

Agreed. But that isn't the point. To quote a commercial DP JP Summers, "Gear fucking matters." But gear is for crews, not for audiences. Audiences don't mind if it's RED or if it's Sony. But the crew will be thankful for the latitude of the RED if the stop is set wrong during a critical shot.

You mean Cardboardy-O's wasn't real cereal? Are you sure? I even remember when they came out with extra corrugation. I need to have a serious talk with my dad.

They weren't even O's.

 

[Steven Abrams]

wider DR

Are there dynamic range charts posted some where of monstro? I may have missed them.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I totally understand this phil, though when acquiring they are willing to pay more for it when it's 4k, so the question stands, how can they tell if it's been upscaled in camera? is there a way to tell?

Depends of the footage ofcouse. Blury unsharp out of focus stuff with not much detail will look quite the same. VFX work and bluscreen footage will really suck in comparision and your grading capabilities will be way limited and your noise will be more than twice as pronounced.

Also if you shoot something for netflix then cost for the camera body will be an extreemly small fraction of the total budget. Then if you can replace the body pay double and get a better picture its simply worth it. Especially if that alow you to use less light. Setting up larger / more powerful lightsetups is far more costly due to the time consumption and hassle to do so than pay extra for renting the more costly camera.

And most of all Netflix will not pay you a fixed rate per minute based on if your stuff is HD or 4k. They very much look at resolution as just one parameter of production value. A parameter that they easily can set the bar for on thier own productions, Its more difficult to write a specification for how good the setdesign needs to be or the acting.

So even if sheating them on the camera resolution is probably very possible you kind of just make it more difficult for your self to reach the same end result.

I got a 4k projector and large dolby vision oled screen and to me the difference between the stuff we do as upscaled alexa simply looks far more noisy and unsharp than downscaled 8k stuff. Alot of times we shoot with both in the same light using the same lenses and also comp shots with layers coming from both cameras and its then quite clear what holds up better and what needs to be degraded to match. The roumor that you dont see difference in resolution between 4k and HD does not hold water if picture and viewing device quality is high.

 

[andrewhake]

The "Apple Store" version of RED Raven Kit doesn't have any skull logo on it.. https://store.storeimages.cdn-apple....5,0,0&iccEmbed=0&layer=comp&.v=1501534299325 A big RED logo instead of a skull! Playing on the safe side eh Apple?

The one on red.com doesn’t have a skull on it either.

Also the earth is a sphere.

 

[Frank Glencairn]

Hey Phil what about nyquist limit and the fact the arri LF doesn't resolve a 4K image after debayering? You ever heard of that argument: the debayering process vs resolution and resolved lines?

Netflix doesn't really care about real resolution (image information), as long as they can count 4k pixels.
After they compress the shit out of it for delivery, it doesn't mater anyway, since everything that might have bin there, goes out of the window anyway.

I mean - 16-18 mbit for 4K? - seriously?

My old Phantom3 drone records 4k @ 60 mbit, and even that looks like crap. IMHO everything under 150 mbit for 4k delivery is for the birds.

 

[richard peterson]

I have a question about the Alexa LF. When the Alexa LF is shooting with the included PL mount will it shoot a greater sensor size then the current XTs and minis. Or to ask the question another way to gain the added sensor size do you need to use the LPL lens mount. Dose the PL mount on the LF crop the sensor or can you still gain increased resolution and sensor size even when shooting with a standard PL mount?

 

[Gaston Fazio]

I have a question about the Alexa LF. When the Alexa LF is shooting with the included PL mount will it shoot a greater sensor size then the current XTs and minis. Or to ask the question another way to gain the added sensor size do you need to use the LPL lens mount. Dose the PL mount on the LF crop the sensor or can you still gain increased resolution and sensor size even when shooting with a standard PL mount?

You don't shoot with a mount, you shoot with a lens. If that is FF/VV format lens, regardless of the mount, you should cover the full sensor. (restrictions aplays)
I'm not an expert here, but that's my two cents.

Cheers!!

G

 

[Michael Lindsay]

I have a question about the Alexa LF. When the Alexa LF is shooting with the included PL mount will it shoot a greater sensor size then the current XTs and minis. Or to ask the question another way to gain the added sensor size do you need to use the LPL lens mount. Dose the PL mount on the LF crop the sensor or can you still gain increased resolution and sensor size even when shooting with a standard PL mount?

The LF comes with the new mount but you can put on a simple Arri adapdatr for PL... Lenses like the S7 that hve been designed both for PL (the throat size not just the flange to image plane depth) and full frame will cover and will work easily.... Mounts do occasionally limit stops but PL is quite genrous unless the lens is 100% plane side telecentric...

Longer lenses often cover bigger formats.. for example I have a Cooke Pancro 100mm on my monsto and it covers Vista vision with an interesting feel..

 

[Brian Merlen]

I found an old post on this!

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...ical-limits-of-resolution-make-12K-the-new-4K

http://www.xdcam-user.com/2011/01/when-is-4k-really-4k-bayer-sensors-and-resolution/

I find it incredibly interesting but yea compression kills the images anyway. H264 is what a competitor of them use I happen to know

Netflix doesn't really care about real resolution (image information), as long as they can count 4k pixels.
After they compress the shit out of it for delivery, it doesn't mater anyway, since everything that might have bin there, goes out of the window anyway.

I mean - 16-18 mbit for 4K? - seriously?

My old Phantom3 drone records 4k @ 60 mbit, and even that looks like crap. IMHO everything under 150 mbit for 4k delivery is for the birds.

 

[Mark Wuerthner]

I have a question about the Alexa LF. When the Alexa LF is shooting with the included PL mount will it shoot a greater sensor size then the current XTs and minis. Or to ask the question another way to gain the added sensor size do you need to use the LPL lens mount. Dose the PL mount on the LF crop the sensor or can you still gain increased resolution and sensor size even when shooting with a standard PL mount?

You might want to go to the arri website and find the details.
https://www.arri.com/largeformat/

There is no pl mount, only the lpl mount. There is a pl adapter that allows you to use any pl lens on the lpl mount,however, the coverage to the sensor is subject to the image circle of whatever pl lens you use. You can shoot the camera in "16 x 9" mode at which point the sensor is 31.68mm wide. Most ultra primes and most master primes can cover that width. Also on the website is a sensor coverage/image circle calculator to see this.

 

[Misha Engel]

Netflix doesn't really care about real resolution (image information), as long as they can count 4k pixels.
After they compress the shit out of it for delivery, it doesn't mater anyway, since everything that might have bin there, goes out of the window anyway.

I mean - 16-18 mbit for 4K? - seriously?

My old Phantom3 drone records 4k @ 60 mbit, and even that looks like crap. IMHO everything under 150 mbit for 4k delivery is for the birds.

TV viewers are used to TV quality so they don't see that the quality is crap.
I qualify netflix 16 Mbps 4k as medium TV quality (I think it's x265 3 pass 16Mbs staxrip quality).
25 Mbps looks pretty good on a UHD-TV from normal viewing distance with 3 pass.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Netflix doesn't really care about real resolution (image information), as long as they can count 4k pixels.
After they compress the shit out of it for delivery, it doesn't mater anyway, since everything that might have bin there, goes out of the window anyway.

I mean - 16-18 mbit for 4K? - seriously?

My old Phantom3 drone records 4k @ 60 mbit, and even that looks like crap. IMHO everything under 150 mbit for 4k delivery is for the birds.

Hmm,
To me it really looks tons better when the show is arri65, dragon or such and mastered in 4k for netflix. Are you sure you actually watch the netflix stuff in 4k, do you have their 4k contract and the right screen to go with it? Preferably dolby vision and large... As if you do and can not see the difference then I say you need to go by glasses.


Capturing something in 4k / UHD on a pretty shitty noisy drone camera and save it at a certain bitrate in the drone is not the same as using the best down sample algoritms and then compress from there. As a clean image is far easier to compress.


And I can assure you that when paying for a show, netflix will study image qualitiy just as much as anything else and for sure picture quality will not be stamped as 10/10 if you shoot it all with a phantom3, and it will not tick all boxes if its shot sloppy on arri 65 or monstro eater but your are much more likely to succeed.

 

[jordan levy]

Depends of the footage ofcouse. Blury unsharp out of focus stuff with not much detail will look quite the same. VFX work and bluscreen footage will really suck in comparision and your grading capabilities will be way limited and your noise will be more than twice as pronounced.

Also if you shoot something for netflix then cost for the camera body will be an extreemly small fraction of the total budget. Then if you can replace the body pay double and get a better picture its simply worth it. Especially if that alow you to use less light. Setting up larger / more powerful lightsetups is far more costly due to the time consumption and hassle to do so than pay extra for renting the more costly camera.

And most of all Netflix will not pay you a fixed rate per minute based on if your stuff is HD or 4k. They very much look at resolution as just one parameter of production value. A parameter that they easily can set the bar for on thier own productions, Its more difficult to write a specification for how good the setdesign needs to be or the acting.

So even if sheating them on the camera resolution is probably very possible you kind of just make it more difficult for your self to reach the same end result.

I got a 4k projector and large dolby vision oled screen and to me the difference between the stuff we do as upscaled alexa simply looks far more noisy and unsharp than downscaled 8k stuff. Alot of times we shoot with both in the same light using the same lenses and also comp shots with layers coming from both cameras and its then quite clear what holds up better and what needs to be degraded to match. The roumor that you dont see difference in resolution between 4k and HD does not hold water if picture and viewing device quality is high.

sorry, i think you are seeing the last question out of context. im talking about projects that have already been shot, independently, then netflix acquiring them. Or shooting something now, not intended for netflix, then netflix coming in snapping it up for distribution. this has happened a couple of times for me and we shot 3.2k with alexas, but did 1080 finishes for regular broadcast. upon acquiring them, netflix reps say was this shot 4k or not, and in the moment if we tell them yes it was then the financial deal is more. so the producers are like could we have just made it 4k in camera or in post, could they tell? i didnt really have an answer for them, now i sort of do from phil, if they are looking for it then you can. though i still dont know the specifics to how and what.
its not at all about knowingly doing it while in or before production, obviously if it's for netflix, like i said earlier, then production is on it and previously they have given me choices on either the sony f55 or the varicam.