ARRI ALEXA LF - 4k, FullFrame announced

[Björn Benckert]

The following are facts, Monstro got:
Better light sensitivity.
Better color rendition.
Bigger DR.
Bigger sensor.
More suitable for cinema shaped sensor.
Far more resolution.
Better compression options.
Dual recording capability with proxies on the side.
More adaptable formfactor with wastly less minimum weight.
A lower price.

Now people will argue about a few of those statements but I done my testings and to me they all hold water even though I have not tested the LF. But I can calculate from what I seen from the XT sensor, as LF should according to arri, only be a bigger version of it. Monstro is not just a bigger version of dragon or helium. So dont draw any conclutions without testing monstro it behaves quite different than any other red camera.

But sure there will be DPs, AC and producions, especially larger ones, that prefer large studio cameras and what the LF has to offer. But if you are a owner operator owning one camera, then to me it does not make much sense to pick up an LF. But for rental houses it makes sense as its what the Arri users will ask for.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Wouldn't the arri need to account for debayering? So it's actually sub 4K like they used to say about red ones

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Bjorn,

Have you tested Monstro DR against Alexa? I would not be surprised to see Monstro beating Alexa as the Weapon Dragon IMHO was only a whisker under the Alexa DR although the larger Alexa LF sensor area should see shadow noise improve especially in Full Gate mode.

 

[Brian Boyer]

- What ISO would you want this 7-9 stops above 18% gray?
- Why at ISO 250? Especially since digital is cleaner and more sensitive.
- Film, modern Vision 3, tops out at 13-15 stops of total captured DR. That's from Kodak as well as my measurements. Actually Kodak says 13, I say you can get 15. But that depends on a variety of things.

After sleep and some more thought, perhaps I can answer these questions more accurately and succinctly than I did in my long, rambling post.

As I stated before, I was thinking primarily in terms of exploiting the behavior of the existing RED sensors you illustrated in your charts. For what I’m talking about in terms of highlight latitude, a different approach might work better.

I guess maybe that’s what you were trying to get at in your questions about what ISO should the 7-9 stops over middle gray occur and why I chose ISO 250. Perhaps the ISO range would be 50-800 or 50-1000. Does that make more sense procedurally for a sensor with the behavior I’m talking about?

Like I said, I’m not really well versed in what all would be involved in making that type of overexposure latitude happen or what implementation would make the most sense. I just refuse to believe 7.5 or whatever Alexa manages to achieve is the most we’ll ever see out of a digital sensor. Out of a CMOS sensor, maybe. But, not from digital per se.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Wouldn't the arri need to account for debayering? So it's actually sub 4K like they used to say about red ones ����

Yes, It will make a great 2k.

 

[Erich Roland]

I expect you are right. Would recommend being very cautious about buying an Alexa LF if a Mini version is coming soon!

However I believe Arri when they say the Mini form factor can't fit the power needed by the Alexa LF.

But not every one NEEDS the high speed 4K 150fps of the Alexa LF, I'm sure if the Mini LF did 4K 60fps then many people would be content with that (or heck even 30fps 4K they could get away with selling in the Mini LF).

Arri figured out how to build small when they had the challenge by the Movi craze, and had lost some amount of business to Reds small form factor. Red managed to put a Nuclear reactor into a matchbox (as someone once said). Miniaturizing has been done and it will happen again. The market spoke loud and clear when it wanted Mini's over the full sized Alexa classic size, weight and cost. Until Arri offers a carbon fiber smaller version they wont realize the full potenial (sales) of the new 4k format. Arri is very clever and business savy, they will sell a crap load of 125,000 cameras before they will release the 75,000 mini version (guesstimate) and then sell a significantly larger number of those (which is why it will come). You want a Arri 4k within the next year (or more) you have to pony up the big bucks and travel back to the hefty-huge form factor.

Nobody said a Mini-LF has to be as small and light as the current Alexa Mini, Id guess they could not hit that same exact size and weight but there is a lot of room to improve from the current size and weight of the new Alexa-LF. Guarantee the Mini-LF will come, its just a question of when? Probably when the sales of the Alexa-LF start dropping off or some other market factor.

Also Arri learned an expensive lesson when the Mini had as many (or more) features as its full size production camera, suddenly nobody bought the full size camera anymore. This was a surprise to Arri, so expect a Mini-LF to be handicapped in important ways to protect the more expensive model's sales.

 

[Oron Cohen]

With the Alexa, ARRI's pipeline does some characterization along the way that - to my eye - mimics the look of later Kodak 5219 variants. This is a much desired look, lush and rich with nice blacks.

Cheers - #19

Spot on, on the 5219. I remember first seeing Alexa footage and it just looked like Kodak film to me, and this is what they aimed for as they know how conservative filmmakers could be (producers, directors and dop's a like), usually we will just opt for what is tried and tested, and will try to avoid anything we don't know.
That's very natural though, as this business in general is quite risky. The combination of a camera that is build like a tank and resemble film (and the look people were used to), just nailed it.
RED with the black shading, and those firmware updates that always add something good but then makes some things go wrong is something AC's and DOP's can't and won't handle if they don't have to. Don't forget that AC's and operators are also a factor, if they prefer working on a certain camera that seem to them easier to handle there voice will be heard as well.

Also, although most people here are owners, most film productions are rental only, so you choose whatever works faster, easier and most crew know best, so you don't have "issues" on set. No one can't afford any hiccups.

Having said all those things, I like the look of my Dragon sensor better then Alexa, I have no idea why, I just do, and I also have experience with film. I also liked fuji film back in day, so maybe I just like a different look then most. I also never had any real issue with Dragon-Weapon DR, I can't believe people are even still talking about it, I feel I have a ton of DR, more then I had on film, defiantly more then Fuji Eterna. Resolution of 5K on a dragon is way more then enough for film and TV and I love the form factor, just cancel this black shading thing, and sort out firmwares, any firmware release should be with zero issues, the fact that they cancelled histogram per gamma on the last firmware, plus some other issues did drive me a bit mad.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Just a side note on "just resolution hype", you do know that Monstro has "more captured color" that say Dragon and the LF right? It's not just about pixel resolution, it's about what those pixels are doing for the image quality. The odd question that Anton puts forth is why would RED drop the price on Monstro when it's a slightly larger format in width for cinema application with more color and resolution than competing systems? It's already cheaper than the LF and RED has the "market share" in terms of camera sales.

I'm not a party pooper here, I'm happy Arri will be able to play on what will soon be a 4K and 4K+ only playground. It's good to have choices in this industry, but don't ignore a great deal of other things going on.

I think the resolution hype over 4K is over, in the industry at least. I don't hear "why do we need 4K" anymore when I work, it's now a common practice. However, Arri's been, most famously in the Netflix realm, kept outside and their sub-4K mentality has fueled high profile names like most notably Roger Deakins dismissing resolution. When high profile names diss Red and trash-talk resolution it becomes a popular norm down the line.

But now, with the LF probably going into being the most popular camera for narrative work I think that it will take a big hit on Red. The sub-4K argument against Arri has been the one thing that held back the already enormous momentum for their cameras. If everyone thinks 4K is a standard, most will go for the LF now, it's over 4K so no one can argue against it being a sub-4K camera. The truth is that people don't care about the math when it comes to more pixels giving a better downscale converted resolution.

I'm not sure that we can argue that because there are more Red cameras in the field, they have any better industry status than Arri. There are probably more DSLR cameras used for video in the world than both Arri and Red combined, but that doesn't make them the most valid choice for work.

I'm coming from the the narrative filmmaking side of things and I'm not talking about those doing owner operating gigs like drone work or corporate videos or smaller commercials, I'm sure that with the amount of Red in the world, those types of gigs will still be Red dominated. But we can't dismiss the power of narrative works impact on the status of the cameras. If less and less Red cameras gets used in narrative films and television, people might view Red as a step under Arri rather than on par. With the LF, I'm not gonna be surprised if most Netflix narrative shows will change from Red, Sony or any other 4K camera to the Alexa LF. While high profile names like Roger Deakins will definitely not change into using a Red anytime soon. So in an already Arri dominated frontline for cinema and television, it's going to be even more Arri now with the LF.

Then there's the fact that the Alexa LF is more closer to the Xenomorph or the DXL than any single Weapon or Helium in terms of camera body. It has built in wireless video and internal focusing. Comparing the Monstro to the LF is like comparing a part of the LF to the base camera of the Monstro. If we were to compare the entire thing you probably need the Omod attached and/or more modules and boxes that gives you all the options that the LF gives you. So the Red will end up almost the same size if the same features were used as the LF gives you. Difference being that the LF probably has better stability in using these, since protocols and everything's been tested and fine tuned to work perfectly.

The Alexa LF is a true production camera with all the internal features that you would want for a team-based production. This is level of production we're comparing it against. Red cameras might be good for owner operators (like myself), but all the type of team based narrative gigs will probably benefit more with the LF and that's gonna take a big bite out of the popularity for Red.

Now that the biggest competitor to Red has caught up in the 4K race, there has to be something more unique that Red offers up. The biggest problem is the colors and DR curve in my opinion. They might be more "accurate", but for most high profile cinematographers Red feels more flat and artificial. It might be bullshit on paper, but most people prefer the colors that Alexa gives you. The argument being that with grading and everything, people can't spot if something was shot on Alexa or Red, but most true professionals can. As long as the grading isn't pushing the image into extremely pushed colors, I don't need much time to spot if something's shot on Alexa or Red. If we compare the promo video for Monstro compared to the promo shots for the LF, it's like night and day. There's a clarity of harmony in the LF material that I don't feel when looking at Red material.

The debate and discussion of Red vs Alexa can go on forever, they have pros and cons both of them, but that's not the point. Point is that the cons of Alexa has been reduced significally with the LF and it will be felt. I won't be surprised if we'll see a real big dip in Red usage among television and cinema productions which turn to LF instead.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Yes, It will make a great 2k.

I think someone needs to talk to Netflix about Nyquist limit and how this new Arri camera is "fake 4k" LMFAO


http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?showtopic=60082

Seriously after all the crap Arri talked about how 4k isn't needed, how you can't even view it because of viewing distance and angles, how debayering makes the image not even 4k and how important it is to have S35 legacy...


I feel like the Alexa LF must be called out for everything they did to the Red One! Someone must confront Netflix on the debayering issue and prevent this tragedy lol

https://backlothelp.netflix.com/hc/...duction-and-Post-Production-Requirements-v2-1

They cant shrink the pixels so they made it bigger than S35, like really? After all the various attacks on the Red one, or on Red for sensor sizes sometimes being smaller or larger than historical arri standards, they do this? Its honestly like between the alexa mini and this everything Arri ever attacked Red about has now been done by arri themselves. so crazy to see this after hearing everything I did for so long on how red shouldn't do it this way or that?

at least hydrogen one cant easily be mimicked by arri like they did on the mini and now the LF, reds so far ahead in innovation now its a shame to see arri copying so many things they scoffed at for years tbh.

i own both and love both but the level of bs here is astounding given all the historical attacks by arri on all these same issues

 

[David Peterson]

What’s missing now are cinema zooms that cover FF. Will Angenieux starting making an equivalent to their workhorse 11:1 Optimo?

The Sigma 24-35mm doesn't take one far! Literally.

 

[David Peterson]

My totally aside question is: What is going to happen to the thousands of rental Alexas out there?

Many of them will keep on renting out just the same as before (perhaps a bit lower price than before the LF).

But many others will be hitting the secondhand market over the next year or two! Am looking forward to the price drops on Arri Alexa Classics on eBay ;-)

I had a thought: maybe the current/old Alexas, now that they are cheap (they have been for a while now), will be more popular than the LF. Especially for commercial work. Do you really think that people who like the Alexa image, but who also have tighter budgets, are going to spend more for the LF? Do you really think that people doing yoghurt ads are going to bother with the LF? I don't think so.

Yes, the great thing is even the oldest of the old Arri Alexas still have exactly the same sensor tech at their core as the latest Alexa LF!

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Spot on, on the 5219. I remember first seeing Alexa footage and it just looked like Kodak film to me,

It looked like that because you saw a material showing similarities. Had you seen material showing differences you'd see the differences.

Differences are in particular color separation and tonal richness, where the film excels and Alexa looks washed out in comparison.
The price of deciding the most at the base color science level.

 

[paulcurtis]

So you mean that Red is grounded to only sub lever projects for owner operators or low budget? Not to downplay anyones work, but if you look at the Oscar lineup, how many Red cameras have been used? Is it going to get better now that the LF is out? Nope. The high profile industry drives what cameras are popular. If big productions shot on the Blackmagic Ursa, that camera would be popular and a high profile camera, but it isn't. If most productions now turn from Red to the LF, that means less focus goes towards Red. For owner operators that would lead to the good old question of: "why aren't you using an Arri?". Most people I've talked to say the same thing... "no reason for a Red now". These are cinematographers and producers/directors and so on. If people aren't viewing this as a warning about what's to come, it's dangerous business for anyone who think too highly of Red. I'm sorry, but Arri's going full force now, I don't see any reason anymore to upgrade my Red camera, it would probably be a waste of money. Please prove me wrong... not by opinion, but by action.

You're basing the quality of a camera on a selection of 10 films out of 10,000+ made each year? And those films mostly by seasoned DPs who have grown up with Arri?

I think it's also fair to say that the majority of people on here who own a red are owner/operator and there are a lot more Reds out there than Alexas.

C'mon nothing has changed. There's always a choice between Sony, Arri, Red et al. and there always will be. The truth is that performance between cameras is so much closer these days, more choices come down to workflow and other aspects. I would take a Red over Alexa any day but perhaps it's because i'm more familiar. Maybe Red needs to work on getting the cameras into schools more (maybe they do). People choose mostly what they're comfortable with.

Those 10 oscar bests could have been shot on anything and still be nominated, none of them are nominated *because* of the camera.

And i still maintain this Alexa is the same as the old Alexa but two sensors glued together. It's not a leap in image quality at all.

cheers
Paul

 

[Misha Engel]

Baywatch 2017 is a crappy movie and shot on Alexa XT plus, conclussion Alexa XT plus is a crap camera ????

Most of today's 10k$ camera's are more than capable enough to make good quality pictures.
Long story short, in 99% of the cases it's NOT the camera that makes the difference.

 

[D Fuller]

I expect you are right. Would recommend being very cautious about buying an Alexa LF if a Mini version is coming soon!

However I believe Arri when they say the Mini form factor can't fit the power needed by the Alexa LF.

But not every one NEEDS the high speed 4K 150fps of the Alexa LF, I'm sure if the Mini LF did 4K 60fps then many people would be content with that (or heck even 30fps 4K they could get away with selling in the Mini LF).

I’d expect it to be quite a long time before Arri solves the heat problems required to put an LF sensor into a Mini form factor. There is a reason the LF is the size it is.

 

[jordan levy]

Many of them will keep on renting out just the same as before (perhaps a bit lower price than before the LF).

But many others will be hitting the secondhand market over the next year or two! Am looking forward to the price drops on Arri Alexa Classics on eBay ;-)
Quote Originally Posted by Karim D. Ghantous View Post
I had a thought: maybe the current/old Alexas, now that they are cheap (they have been for a while now), will be more popular than the LF. Especially for commercial work. Do you really think that people who like the Alexa image, but who also have tighter budgets, are going to spend more for the LF? Do you really think that people doing yoghurt ads are going to bother with the LF? I don't think so.


Yes, the great thing is even the oldest of the old Arri Alexas still have exactly the same sensor tech at their core as the latest Alexa LF!

everyone's perspective is very interesting to me, it's what i love about this forum, that everyone comes from different areas of film making.
I come from mainly shooting medium to high end commercials for the past 23 years and in recent year jumping into low to medium budget tv shows and specials, mostly for netflix, comedy central, tbs, etc.

for example, commercials wont blink at eye at camera pkg cost, ive actually done yogurt commercial campaigns with $8k phantom packages. commercials have the most money to spend and before im even hired the director and producers already have an alexa pkg in the budget and sometimes on hold, there's not even a question what the camera choice is, the choice im normally making is what lenses to use, vintage or modern, primes or zooms.

the cable television show meetings go like this, can we get alexas? and netflix show meetings go like this, ok, so we have to shoot on sony f55's or varicams, which do you want?
In the past 5 years i have never heard or had anyone ask, can we shoot this on red? in fact the only mention on reds are, do we have to shoot on red? we dont have a lot of money. in producer's eyes red is not reliable, in directors eyes arri has the best image and is what the big films are using and they want to emulate that.

that being said, red is still going to rule the owner operator market. its small, its cheap, you can show up for your project with 3 cases. even though phil mentioned a mini going for under 30k (which is wow!) but the support it takes to build one out for a professional show is just too much. barely anyone getting into the red game is going to want to deal with all that. in other red forums the main question you see is what is the cheapest this, and what is the cheapest that? people dont want to spend the money. understandably so as im completely aware there is another level and avenues of filmmaking out there with super tight budget, small crew or even one man teams, this is where red will still be hugely relevant.

the new alexa will take over tv, im sure of that, at least where i am in the industry. most likely stay where arri is in films right now, which is almost all of them, besides the big red fans like Fincher and Bay.

As for me, im happy with a raven as my personal low cost camera, one that replaced a 5D, that i can help friends shoot personal projects, help directors with pitches and proof of concepts, get it on as a B or C camera once in a while for green screen setups, etc. the raven also keeps me in check and helps me with my lens addiction of weeding all high cost pl lenses out of my ownership, which only discouraged me from trying and using other amazing lensing options for my shoots, which i tend to switch up every job, using kowas, baltars, cookes, anamorphic, etc. when i owned a set of zeiss standard primes i would always try to use them and half the time im like i wish i had something else for this one job.

Though my favorite camera to use is hands down the amira. it has the best ergonomics, so easy to use, not much can go wrong, ive never had an issue, shoots 200fps, easy to manage prores files, built in NDs, it's just my personal favorite. now if i saw those go for under 20k, then id have a real issue with the dilemma of my thought of only owning something cheap for my personal use. above 20k, im just not interested in owning anything, tech moves too fast.

There is one other thought, as i get into shooting documentaries, my first one went to tiff and sold to amazon, shot on 5D, my latest one in post production shot on the production companies hvx2000 and is in post right now, i dont think arri or red have any edge in doc film making. the main reason i agreed to the hvx is that the sound capabilities blew my mind and it had 4k Vlog, a built in monitor, built in eye piece, a battery that would last two days! red nor arri have this going for them as they dont concentrate on sound. docs are becoming such a big part of the industry now, what would blow my mind would be making an all in one red doc style camera! i wont hold my breath, but that is my next pruchase most likely, a small easy to use, small battery, 4k doc style camera with great sound capabilities, built in!

 

[Christoffer Glans]

for example, commercials wont blink at eye at camera pkg cost, ive actually done yogurt commercial campaigns with $8k phantom packages. commercials have the most money to spend and before im even hired the director and producers already have an alexa pkg in the budget and sometimes on hold, there's not even a question what the camera choice is, the choice im normally making is what lenses to use, vintage or modern, primes or zooms.

the cable television show meetings go like this, can we get alexas? and netflix show meetings go like this, ok, so we have to shoot on sony f55's or varicams, which do you want?
In the past 5 years i have never heard or had anyone ask, can we shoot this on red? in fact the only mention on reds are, do we have to shoot on red? we dont have a lot of money. in producer's eyes red is not reliable, in directors eyes arri has the best image and is what the big films are using and they want to emulate that.

that being said, red is still going to rule the owner operator market. its small, its cheap, you can show up for your project with 3 cases. even though phil mentioned a mini going for under 30k (which is wow!) but the support it takes to build one out for a professional show is just too much. barely anyone getting into the red game is going to want to deal with all that. in other red forums the main question you see is what is the cheapest this, and what is the cheapest that? people dont want to spend the money. understandably so as im completely aware there is another level and avenues of filmmaking out there with super tight budget, small crew or even one man teams, this is where red will still be hugely relevant.

the new alexa will take over tv, im sure of that, at least where i am in the industry. most likely stay where arri is in films right now, which is almost all of them, besides the big red fans like Fincher and Bay.

Exactly. All the narrative work I've been involved with that was shot on Red is because me and my friend was involved. We are probably the only ones, except maybe Björn Benckert to actually push for Red for narrative work. Almost every other production shoot Alexa XTs or Amiras. No one in Sweden as far as I know shoot on Sony. I can absolutely relate to what people talk about when going into preproduction; it's either "we are using Alexas" or "why do we shoot on Red?", never ever any positive notions from anyone about Red, we always have to convince them.

So it doesn't matter if the Red is technically better or technically more advanced on paper or in reality, it doesn't matter a bit. Everything comes down to reliability discussions or color/look discussions, never resolution, never downsampling, never how good the pixels look at 100% zoom. All those things goes straight over the heads of most people in the industry.

It's been like this for years now. It's been 10 years since the first Red One's and the rumours of their unreliability are still around, either because people are stupid or because Red cameras still have a percentage more problems than Alexas. It doesn't matter how many instagram posts people put up with Red's in cold weather, Red's in dusty areas, Red's in sunny deserts, Red's in the mud, with the text "built like a tank". Sure they survive, but small things like the monitor cables costing $240, but can easily fail compared to a 5$ retail USB cable for my hard drive used in the field that I've had since the first USB3 cables came out. There are so many things that people get fed up with when it comes to the Red gear that It's hard to judge anyone who feel like getting an Alexa just for the sake of it not screwing up a days shoot.

So what can Red do about this? All I've seen during the last couple of years have been about pushing resolution, pushing out new hot stuff out of the oven, making one thing that doesn't work well, change it, release something else, change everything so everyone need to change every piece of gear they own, replace sensor, fix OLPFs, manage sensor problems, noise problems and the list goes on into infinity all while Arri released almost only 1 type of camera and it's been working great for many many years now.

How many sensors and new body types will be released by Red during the entire lifetime of the new LF?

I think that Red needs to get their own robust studio camera going. Using what they learned from the DXL work and Xenomorphs. Release a slightly larger camera that's been tested into infinity, that's locked into it's own firmware type that's been tested so that there are no bugs what so ever. That's contained into one body with everything in it, no modular thing, no cables. Internal flip-out monitor and viewfinder. No hairdryer sounding fans or complicated heating systems. No feeling that you're using a computer, but a robust film camera. I get that the idea of modular and the rock n roll management of getting new cool stuff out is nice and all, but if Red is seriously gonna compete with Alexa, they need to do something like Arri does.

They need to look at why people want to use the Alexa over Red. Especially when we got the tech specs, tests and the science that shows that Monstro is a beast of a sensor and should outperform the Alexa sensor. Arri is still holding it's ground and dominate a large part of the narrative film and television world.

I think it's time for Red to stop acting like the rebel and embrace that they are at the top of the game and act according to it. Release a prime choice camera for narrative film and television that is as robust as the Alexa system and a color science that isn't focused on accuracy but giving a base look that feels like film. It's what most creative people in narrative film and television want and it doesn't matter how good Red is in theory. The Alexa LF is a camera that if I get into a production where I'm not using my own Red, I will go for that. I see no reason not to.

You're basing the quality of a camera on a selection of 10 films out of 10,000+ made each year?

Read the above and no, this isn't really about the quality of the camera in terms of tech specs for the sensor. It might have something to do with Alexas having a lesser reported number of errors than Red cameras both in software and hardware, but I'm basing it on the industry I'm in and when the question when using a Red camera is always "why Red?" and with Alexa: "We shoot on Alexa", you have to ask the question why this is the norm. I get a number of smaller operating jobs with my Red, but if I had an Alexa I would mostly be able to get narrative work.

Most films that are released doesn't reach a big audience. That there are 10 000 films released over a year doesn't mean much if you're trying to compete at the top range of the released films. In Sweden there are very few or even any movies at all shot on Red over a year and among the TV series that's being released the ones shot on Red was because of me, my friend who's a cinematographer and Björn, everyone else is opting for Alexas.

The Alex LF will probably eat away any Red productions in Sweden, there won't be anything else but some commercials, drone shots and corporate videos. Doesn't matter what the tech specs are, this is the reality of the industry. If you get the question now: "why Red?" after the LF is out and you try to convince with pixel count and downsampling math, people will just shake their heads and go for the LF.

 

[M Most]

You're basing the quality of a camera on a selection of 10 films out of 10,000+ made each year? And those films mostly by seasoned DPs who have grown up with Arri?

How quickly people forget. The Alexa has only existed for about 8 years. Essentially all "seasoned DP's" grew up with film. One reason they gravitated to the Alexa was it was the first of the digital cameras to come close to the film aesthetic in particular ways that appealed to film trained cinematographers in ways that Red and Sony did not.

Those 10 oscar bests could have been shot on anything and still be nominated, none of them are nominated *because* of the camera.

I wouldn't say "anything", but certainly any of the major players' products (Arri, Red, Sony, Panasonic) could have been used.

And i still maintain this Alexa is the same as the old Alexa but two sensors glued together. It's not a leap in image quality at all.

Why does Arri need to make a "leap in image quality" when they already produce what most cinematographers consider the most desirable image? And what, to you, would constitute a "leap in image quality?"

 

[Oron Cohen]

It looked like that because you saw a material showing similarities. Had you seen material showing differences you'd see the differences.

Differences are in particular color separation and tonal richness, where the film excels and Alexa looks washed out in comparison.
The price of deciding the most at the base color science level.

I've shot on the Alexa, so it's not only from stuff I saw, it's from what I've shot. I agree with you, that the image is not quite as it looks in the initial tests they've made, and that it looks a bit washed out in comparison etc, but it's still resembles kodak 5219 more then any other camera.

 

[W. Bill Magac]

You're basing the quality of a camera on a selection of 10 films out of 10,000+ made each year? And those films mostly by seasoned DPs who have grown up with Arri?

I think it's also fair to say that the majority of people on here who own a red are owner/operator and there are a lot more Reds out there than Alexas.

C'mon nothing has changed. There's always a choice between Sony, Arri, Red et al. and there always will be. The truth is that performance between cameras is so much closer these days, more choices come down to workflow and other aspects. I would take a Red over Alexa any day but perhaps it's because i'm more familiar. Maybe Red needs to work on getting the cameras into schools more (maybe they do). People choose mostly what they're comfortable with.

Those 10 oscar bests could have been shot on anything and still be nominated, none of them are nominated *because* of the camera.

And i still maintain this Alexa is the same as the old Alexa but two sensors glued together. It's not a leap in image quality at all.

cheers
Paul

Back in the 80's when I was working as a software engineer for a small computer systems company we submitted a bank branch computer system to a major national bank for evaluation. So did IBM. The bank's evaluation team selected our system over IBM saying it better met the bank's needs and was more affordable. However, a senior bank executive nixed the choice and told the evaluation team to pick IBM. When we asked why, we were told "no executive has ever been fired for choosing IBM." I'm sure no DP has ever been fired for choosing an Arri Alexa.