Any news from RED about new stuff for NAB 2014?

[Terry VerHaar]

I hope so. We ALL know ARRI has a 4K Alexa in the works, but they're not teasing it and not taking orders on it. I'd like to see RED adopt this principal.

Show us stuff that's basically right around the corner from being purchasable, or good to go. I think it'd take some strain off their shoulders as well.

Alright, to play devil's advocate: RED (or Arri, you choose) only announces products just before they ship. You buy a new Dragon (or Alexa 4K) and are so proud and delighted with your new state-of-the-art camera when, BAM, your (now formerly?) favorite camera company (whichever one you chose) surprises you with a better camera, for 5% less money, which you can order today and take delivery of in 3-6 weeks. Are you happy you didn't have a clue before you bought your now slightly tarnished camera? :huh:

 

[D Anderson]

Alright, to play devil's advocate: RED (or Arri, you choose) only announces products just before they ship. You buy a new Dragon (or Alexa 4K) and are so proud and delighted with your new state-of-the-art camera when, BAM, your (now formerly?) favorite camera company (whichever one you chose) surprises you with a better camera, for 5% less money, which you can order today and take delivery of in 3-6 weeks. Are you happy you didn't have a clue before you bought your now slightly tarnished camera? :huh:

People are asking to stop the marketing BS - stop the fake clean room horse and pony shows. Stop the misleading dates... Just display your wares - ONLY give dates you can keep.

Pretty simple.

or...

Terry, do you really think its better to want to buy that camera you mention (a camera that is already available) but be misled into delaying that purchase with promises RED cant keep?

Explain how RED giving such extraordinarily misleading dates for products HELP you make good purchase decisions? RED knows full well a side effect of these incredibly bogus dates is that it puts you off buying a competitors camera.

 

[Nick Morrison]

People are asking to stop the marketing BS - stop the fake clean room horse and pony shows. Stop the misleading dates... Just display your wares - ONLY give dates you can keep.

Pretty simple.

or...

Terry, do you really think its better to want to buy that camera you mention (a camera that is already available) but be misled into delaying that purchase with promises RED cant keep?

Explain how RED giving such extraordinarily misleading dates for products HELP you make good purchase decisions? RED knows full well a side effect of these incredibly bogus dates is that it puts you off buying a competitors camera.

I don't see this "delay" to market as a RED thing. It seems like its become part of the NAB experience. Black Magic regularly delivers cameras almost a year after announcing them. And many other products slowly get off the ground after NAB. I believe even the MOVI started shipping end of last year yes? I agree the waits are frustrating, but this seems like an industry wide phenom, not something exclusive to RED.

 

[danbrazda]

This is all so surreal to me. Now Arri is making all the news with a maybe 6K Alexa at NAB 2014. Bitch and moan as much as you want about the Dragon delivery schedule but the fact is the technology does exist and it is in practical use. Red gets criticism for not delivering fast enough but Arri gets accolades for maybes. WTF?

 

[Elsie N]

This is all so surreal to me. Now Arri is making all the news with a maybe 6K Alexa at NAB 2014. Bitch and moan as much as you want about the Dragon delivery schedule but the fact is the technology does exist and it is in practical use. Red gets criticism for not delivering fast enough but Arri gets accolades for maybes. WTF?

WOW! Imagine the problems they are going to encounter when they start upgrading the sensors in all those 1080 p-shooters they've been selling!

 

[Terry VerHaar]

People are asking to stop the marketing BS - stop the fake clean room horse and pony shows. Stop the misleading dates... Just display your wares - ONLY give dates you can keep.

Pretty simple.

or...

Terry, do you really think its better to want to buy that camera you mention (a camera that is already available) but be misled into delaying that purchase with promises RED cant keep?

Explain how RED giving such extraordinarily misleading dates for products HELP you make good purchase decisions? RED knows full well a side effect of these incredibly bogus dates is that it puts you off buying a competitors camera.

You cant have it both ways. If the company holds off announcing new tech until the very last moments, people will get burned - and be pissed. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. Running a business is hard. Listen to what is said. Use your past experience and your brain to make a decision that works for you and stop bitching. No one is holding a gun to your head. In one of my favorite lines from The Eagles... "get over it."

I have followed RED for several years and I miss the back and forth that used to exist here.

BTW - they aren't any more omniscient than you are, they simply don't know they "can't keep" those dates when they state them.

 

[D Anderson]

they simply don't know they "can't keep" those dates when they state them.

I`m not suggesting having it both ways - I`m suggesting to have it more one way than the other.

Terry, they can announce products all they want. Show off product? yes please - but the suggestion is for RED to stop spinning dates out their ass.

Surely we can agree dates are good but fantasy dates are counter productive? Only the biggest RED apologist could argue against that?!

Remember these dates aren't a little out .... they are astronomically wrong. If RED really cant improve estimates on their own products then simply show the product BUT don't share timelines.

 

[Brian Merlen]

black magic is pushing dates, so is phantom flex 4k, leica, and most companies. if anything red starting the get it out there ASAP approach is catching on. we now have cameras released in beta from more brands, i don't necessarily see this as a bad thing either. we also had sony not shoot their new models in the foot this year by not rereleasing the f5 and f55 with spec tweaks and discontinuing the old ones, sony knew people were bummed on the constant depreciation of releasing new tweaks all the time, they went the firmware route. arri updated their cameras as well, new media, firmware, I would argue red is actually rubbing off quite well on the other industry players if anything...


the other brands seem to be taking the best of reds stuff, but not getting hit with the delay flack, despite the reality which is almost all companies are late almost all the time due to low yields and stuff of that nature, bum sensors, apple pro res dragging it out, etc. lots of stupid reasons why these things take a while...

i don't think for a second red is doing bad when the entire industry is ripping off their business model now essentially...and people can complain about upgrades all they want, you can buy a carbon just like any of us "could". sure it ain't cheap, but its equally available to all and has been for some time now. so when no one else is running a sensor trade in program (but surely, they will, they are ripping off all the other concepts) i really don't think its fair to get too bent out of shape. we are all waiting here with each other, we all could of saved or financed for a carbon, and once upon a time reds cost a lot, pre price cut. the carbon pricing for earlier access really isn't that unfounded and i think if its really a critical need anyone would just finance it and bank it up the past few months enjoying a relative monopoly in their area most likely. i wish i had done it myself, maybe next time around...


but i agree with the theory of "i like the upgrade program, so i don't like too much flack against it, and no this isn't whining". frankly i don't care if my camera ships in 2014 even at all, just as long as red hopefully continues to offer upgrade programs I will own their products for my career. but my business model needs the upgrade programs, i can't afford to squander money on cameras that drop like rocks and need new bodies all the time and can't even get anything for the old ones. the day the programs cease is the day i give up being an owner op, so i will continue to vocally support the upgrade program, because it permits me to expand in ways that keep banks and vast debts not involved with my model, and so far its working. so i don't care how long it takes, and the logistics suck on everyones ends lets be honest about that, plus we all can cut in line any time we wanna step up to it with 50k, so i really don't see the problem here. go get a flex 4k, today, go get a 4kbmc today, oh wait you probably can't because the unavailability is just part of the game folks...if anything we should be happy we even get a cut the line option with red at all. no one else is doing that , period

 

[Aaron McLane]

I believe we will see a smaller form factor Epic Dragon, ready to ship. I think there have been some pretty strong hints as to that being the next camera. Place your bets.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

You cant have it both ways. If the company holds off announcing new tech until the very last moments, people will get burned - and be pissed. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. Running a business is hard. Listen to what is said. Use your past experience and your brain to make a decision that works for you and stop bitching. No one is holding a gun to your head. In one of my favorite lines from The Eagles... "get over it."

I have followed RED for several years and I miss the back and forth that used to exist here.

BTW - they aren't any more omniscient than you are, they simply don't know they "can't keep" those dates when they state them.

That's a problem a lot of people have with Apple. It changed for some time with regular updates, but at the moment it's back to the old "when is the next mac coming out?" guessing game. With the iPhones and their regular updates you have a good possibility to hold off a purchase because you know when the next one will come out. For me the whole announcement / non-announcement deal is ok whichever way they do it. It was a lot of fun chatting about what will be along with everyone here, but it's just not wise for RED to do so.

What I'd like to have is something like a 1-3 months announcement ahead of the true launch/ availability. But even if not, RED has been known to step up for those who felt "cheated".


EDIT: but I am also not one of the "lucky" ones who has the funding to jump at the next big thing as soon as it's announced, anyway

 

[Elsie N]

I`m not suggesting having it both ways - I`m suggesting to have it more one way than the other.

Terry, they can announce products all they want. Show off product? yes please - but the suggestion is for RED to stop spinning dates out their ass.

Surely we can agree dates are good but fantasy dates are counter productive? Only the biggest RED apologist could argue against that?!

Remember these dates aren't a little out .... they are astronomically wrong. If RED really cant improve estimates on their own products then simply show the product BUT don't share timelines.

Your point is taken... but aimed somewhat at the wrong actor.

That is, I and many others have pressed Jim and Jarred for dates to the extent that they tried to give us firm dates. Yes they often missed them because it is hard to plan for the unknown. We understood that and they kept giving us their best estimate knowing we were onboard with them and understood.

But now they have grown to the point where they have "customers" rather than "partners" and are having to start acting like a corporation.

The reason so many of us defend RED to the point of fanboism is because we remember the glory days. And while success is an achieved goal, I suspect Jim and Jarred, Brent and others remember those glory days and smile wistfully.

So really, your complaint is with "us", the "partners."

 

[mikeburton]

My complaint is when you look at products like RedRay and or Red Projector. RedRay was announced in what 2008/9? If a company such as RED want to give us a peek behind the curtain, great. But RedRay for example was in the store and available for delivery in March of last year? Well I guess a few people got them but silence ever since? Elsie, if you want to take the blame for this personally then I'll be happy to bitch at you personally but you didn't put the item in the store, then completely remove it and act like it doesn't exist. RED did that, along with a rediculous clean room at NAB and other announced items that were given specific shipping dates and years later, no product.
All said, I like RED, so much so I bought one of thier RED Ones and helped push their workflow very early on. I just don't want to see anymore smoke and mirrors. Why does it effect me you may ask? Because clients of mine ask like I'm a freakin representative of the company and when I keep having to push back they just laugh and or get frustrated. Its part of the reason so many like Arri and the Alexa because it's a no nonesense camera and company. The products of grandure announcements and delivery dates are annoying and it tarnishes the brand you bought into and or support. So, RED, ship what you got, or leave it and the fancy brochure it rode in on at NAB never to be heard from again back at the office, please.

 

[D Anderson]

Well said mike. To suggest REDs P.R. methods are typical and every other manufacturer gets it just as wrong as they do is complete non sense. RED lowers the bar in the area of unhelpful, misleading communication.

Looking forward to NAB and a peek behind the curtain as Mike says but hoping the horse manure stays away.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Surely we can agree dates are good but fantasy dates are counter productive? Only the biggest RED apologist could argue against that?!

Again - this is only known after the fact. Your crystal ball probably has a perfect track record - after the fact.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

... rediculous.

Haha - clever. LOL

 

[D Anderson]

Again - this is only known after the fact. Your crystal ball probably has a perfect track record - after the fact.

Again - this is only known after the fact. Your crystal ball probably has a perfect track record - after the fact.

To suggest it is impossible for RED to improve is just plain wrong. What we are talking about building (or rebuilding) here is TRUST in their announcements. Your expectations must be very low that the status quo is acceptable to you and worth apologizing for.

RED needs these concerns pointed out, not a pat on the back.

Haha - clever. LOL

I`m missing this one? Was the clean room charade a smart move?

 

[AndreasOberg]

Personally I think that RED are doing things the RIGHT way with giving us hints and predictions about the future.
I can't believe so many of you think that the "others" are doing it right or better by not revealing any information.
I always feel completely in the dark with my Canon cameras and others. I have no idea of what will come in the future. With Red I have a pretty good indication of what is actually going to happen in the futre and I love it.

As a customer I think that all the future dates and work in progress should ONLY be seen as theoretical possibilities until they are actually in the Red Store in stock. That way there can be no disappointments.

Cheers!
/Andreas

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I`m missing this one? Was the clean room charade a smart move?

The word "rediculous" (sic) - intentional or not, is funny. red-iculous.

 

[D Anderson]

Personally I think that RED are doing things the RIGHT way with giving us hints and predictions about the future.
I can't believe so many of you think that the "others" are doing it right or better by not revealing any information.
I always feel completely in the dark with my Canon cameras and others. I have no idea of what will come in the future. With Red I have a pretty good indication of what is actually going to happen in the futre and I love it.

As a customer I think that all the future dates and work in progress should ONLY be seen as theoretical possibilities until they are actually in the Red Store in stock. That way there can be no disappointments.

Cheers!
/Andreas

They don't give hints - they put items up for sale. That is not hinting. They also erect fake clean rooms to demonstrate a product being prepped for shipping. Again.. not hints... just false and misleading.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

What Andreas said... end of story. :smiley: