Any news from RED about new stuff for NAB 2014?

[D Anderson]

Even Crestron learned this. They went to touchscreen only panels some time ago and then went back to add hard buttons, for certain core functions. Easy for the manufacturer to offer a lockout for the hard buttons, if desired.

Thank you very much

Fury

Great example.

Physical buttons are pretty hard to screw up in situations with muscle memory. I still love the ALEXA control scheme for this reason.

Exactly - I don't mind touch controls but the disconnect is always there. Its the difference between typing on an ipad and typing on a real keyboard. There is a reason research is being done on touch displays that present physical raised buttons on screens. Once that tech is in place maybe I will swing towards favoring touch interfaces.

 

[Elsie N]

Even Crestron learned this. They went to touchscreen only panels some time ago and then went back to add hard buttons, for certain core functions. Easy for the manufacturer to offer a lockout for the hard buttons, if desired.

Thank you very much

Fury

Like Terry, I see no benefit of buttons. There are plenty of buttons on the Redmote and Side handle for those who like buttons. The touch screen interface is much more convenient and fast, as far as I'm concerned.

Besides, the touchscreen has the purpose of the button replacements written right there on the screen. A new-to-RED camera operator won't likely push the wrong button if he or she can read where to push.

Plus, I'm not aware of any problems with RED touchscreens. Mechanical buttons can fail as has happened to the enter button on one of my Redmotes.

 

[D Anderson]

Mechanical buttons can fail as has happened to the enter button on one of my Redmotes.

A button failing is the least of our worries with Redmotes. Many are used as doorstops they are so unreliable.

Hoping for a refresh soon.

 

[Elsie N]

A button failing is the least of our worries with Redmotes. Many are used as doorstops they are so unreliable.

Hoping for a refresh soon.

Completly agree they could be better. I have two and one of them works reasonably well and the other one has the bad button. '-)

 

[Isaac Marchionna]

The issue, and this comes from years doing UI/UX work, is that many of the button hit areas on the RED Touch are way WAAAAY smaller than best practices should allow for. Generally when you look at the iphone and ipad the button sizes are a specific size because of the general size of a human finger. There's some buttons, even in the new UI, where I've had to switch to a iPad stylus to consistently hit, otherwise a director or DP gets frustrated with me jabbing at a button the size of a pea.

I don't mind touch screens, but certain physical buttons are important, and I've had situations where my red touch decided to become unresponsive in the field (had to be replaced MULTIPLE times) where that could have been a project killer had it not been for the side handle.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

The issue, and this comes from years doing UI/UX work, is that many of the button hit areas on the RED Touch are way WAAAAY smaller than best practices should allow for. Generally when you look at the iphone and ipad the button sizes are a specific size because of the general size of a human finger. There's some buttons, even in the new UI, where I've had to switch to a iPad stylus to consistently hit, otherwise a director or DP gets frustrated with me jabbing at a button the size of a pea.

I don't mind touch screens, but certain physical buttons are important, and I've had situations where my red touch decided to become unresponsive in the field (had to be replaced MULTIPLE times) where that could have been a project killer had it not been for the side handle.

How do you explain the efficacy of the letters on an iPhone keyboard? They are very, very small and yet most people can type quite fast once they become accustomed to them.

 

[Isaac Marchionna]

Technically people who get foot-binding have their feet ACCUSTOMED to the process, it doesn't make it any less painful as a process or awful.

Apple's keyboard is by no means a paragon of UI design. Just because it's out there doesn't mean it's good, as most people who've typed on blackberries would attest. Apple also uses a predictive keyboard that extends hit states on to characters that are more likely to follow other characters. Such as vowels.

This helps Apple in situations where keys are butted right against the edge of the screen such as Q and P. I don't mind a touch screen but they're fragile, and I've had them damaged or become faulty on set. It's also a drag to change settings if your operator is using the Red Touch and you as an AC need to quickly change a setting (sometimes the side handle can't be there when mounting an MDR for example).

I consider the Alexa's system a great example of doing it right and making it AC friendly.

 

[D Anderson]

Apple keyboards are far from ideal.

 

[Rob Anderson]

I've got a masterful AC that never touches a RED screen. He uses the Side Handle and he's a fast gunner with it. Don't like the touch screen? RED already solved that problem for you. Get an EVF with a Side Handle or hell, just use a Small HD or similar. Good to go. No more touch screen. No need to force a preference on everyone else.

The thing I will always love about RED is options. Options with lens mounts, option to use a touch screen or simply go with the REDmote, Side Handle, (possible future instrument), and lots more. Options for batteries. Options for weight configurations. Options for upgrades and media types. I love this about RED and I hope it will always be a part of their DNA. I've got big dollar bets on the fact that it always will.

 

[Elsie N]

For anyone having trouble with the size of a "5 interface, I'm curious if a 9 incher has bigger button-like areas? I've never used a 9 inch so I have no knowledge of this.

 

[Isaac Marchionna]

Options are cool, options however always make it a nightmare when the side handle is almost always configured differently from Epic to Epic.

I don't advocate ditching the touch screen, or ditching the side handle. But as stated in other threads if the Epic had a standard dumb side control surface (buttons) similar to the Alexa, this would be ideal for AC's for the most common functions required.

That's an option, one that has been a really important option for AC's working with things like the Alexa.

Elsie, I believe the UI is scaled to more reasonable standards on the 9" screen. However now you have a 9" screen at 3500 dollars for a solution. So this isn't the best solution for many people.

 

[Rob Anderson]

Options are cool, options however always make it a nightmare when the side handle is almost always configured differently from Epic to Epic.

I don't advocate ditching the touch screen, or ditching the side handle. But as stated in other threads if the Epic had a standard dumb side control surface (buttons) similar to the Alexa, this would be ideal for AC's for the most common functions required.

It already has this. Factory reset UI. And if you don't like RED's defaults, you can carry a copy of your own presets and load those as desired. There are "dumb buttons" factory-configured all over the DSMC. You're essentially asking for RED to remove the ability to configure those buttons. Bah.

The 9" screen will change your life. Not exaggerating. It's phenomenal.

 

[Isaac Marchionna]

You're essentially asking for RED to remove the ability to configure those buttons. Bah.

The 9" screen will change your life. Not exaggerating. It's phenomenal.

No I'm not. Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm advocating a fixed system in addition to what we've already got that brings it more in line with what AC's are used to working with.

We're discussing ways to improve the camera system, which is the benefit of this forum which allows us to interact with RED, and them to hear our feedback.

There's many situations where we can't afford a 9" touch screen hanging off the camera, potentially impacting it's surroundings when used in steadicam mode, etc.

A standard dumb side controller would be a great base set of controls, and then the side handle and touch screen would be extensions of that base. This dumb side control would be specific functions such as resolutions, color temp, ISO, frame rate, etc. Allow the side handle and touch screen to be super custom and such.

I'd still kill for the ports to be in a usable place, and standard connectors, i.e like the F55 and Alexa.

 

[John Marchant]

For anyone having trouble with the size of a "5 interface, I'm curious if a 9 incher has bigger button-like areas? I've never used a 9 inch so I have no knowledge of this.

You have the choice in software of either 'full size' buttons which scale to fill the enlarged screen area, or 'small' buttons, which are physically about the same size as when you're using a 5", leaving more screen visible around the interface.

 

[Elsie N]

No I'm not. Please don't put words in my mouth. I'm advocating a fixed system in addition to what we've already got that brings it more in line with what AC's are used to working with.

We're discussing ways to improve the camera system, which is the benefit of this forum which allows us to interact with RED, and them to hear our feedback.

There's many situations where we can't afford a 9" touch screen hanging off the camera, potentially impacting it's surroundings when used in steadicam mode, etc.

A standard dumb side controller would be a great base set of controls, and then the side handle and touch screen would be extensions of that base. This dumb side control would be specific functions such as resolutions, color temp, ISO, frame rate, etc. Allow the side handle and touch screen to be super custom and such.

I'd still kill for the ports to be in a usable place, and standard connectors, i.e like the F55 and Alexa.

Maybe if they run out of new things to do they could do a re-design. But I'm of the notion that for every action there is a reaction (presumably an opposite and equal one.) If they were to design a second screen as you suggest, perhaps it would find enough buyers to make it profitable.

Yet, the reaction I refer to would be taking away the brain power, man/woman worker power and monies to pay for doing this... that would be at the expense of some other project.

I understand WHY you want this, but I also think I understand why RED may not be able to fulfill your request for the time being.

 

[Elsie N]

You have the choice in software of either 'full size' buttons which scale to fill the enlarged screen area, or 'small' buttons, which are physically about the same size as when you're using a 5", leaving more screen visible around the interface.

That's a good option. I really hope to have a 9 inch screen someday.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I don't advocate ditching the touch screen, or ditching the side handle.

Same here... that's my only point.

 

[Björn Benckert]

comon guys is there not bigger things to solve then touch screens that are only so and so big... when there already is an available option. if you dont like the price of the 9" buy one of those rubber finger/touch screen pen or somthing.

iphone /ipad app would be the ac thing to do if you ask me. and not the super hightech one they been showing just the same menues as in camera would be enough.

 

[Nick Morrison]

iphone /ipad app would be the ac thing to do if you ask me. and not the super hightech one they been showing just the same menues as in camera would be enough.

Would love an IPAD app to adjust settings. Would replace redmote essentially, yes?

 

[Ivan Kovax]

I consider the Alexa's system a great example of doing it right and making it AC friendly.

I respectfully couldn't disagree with you more. Insofar as interface design there is not much more intuitiveness about the Alexa's side panel other than the big labelled buttons than the epic's LCD, which most ACs use while the DP uses the EVF imho.

I would argue otherwise - that occasionally (regularly) I find the Alexa LESS intuitive than the epic.

I will offer a few examples of my frustration on alexa shoots. I want to shoot at 120fps on the XT. What do I do? Well, i click info... click high speed mode. Wait about 30 to 60 seconds.... then I dial in 120fps. Epic? Just change the speed to 120fps.

Want to change resolution or codec from RAW to Prores? Well be prepared to restart your camera, and waste another 1-1.5 minutes in the process. Although EPic doesn't do prores, changing resolution is simple. Even the BMCC can change resolution or codec without needing restart.

Basically the most readily accessible functions on both the epic and alexa are available right away in touch panel or side panel in the Alexas case.

It really isn't as simple as Epic has a bad UI, Alexa good UI as you are stating.