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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

All the Epic/Dragon Vs. Alexa/Sony threads are belong to us...

Matt you need to stop posting these dragon vs epic shots as every time i see them it turns me off dragon!
 
Adam Eden said:
Matt you need to stop posting these dragon vs epic shots as every time i see them it turns me off dragon!
Click to expand...

Turns you off Dragon? You don't want a better camera? I'm confused.
 
I have ordered a dragon and im not seeing much difference between the dragon to epic to be honest. And i have clients following this thread telling me the same thing.

This thread is really de railing Dragon IMHO
 
Adam Eden said:
I have ordered a dragon and im not seeing much difference between the dragon to epic to be honest. And i have clients following this thread telling me the same thing.

This thread is really de railing Dragon IMHO
Click to expand...

No difference? Have you touched the files yourself? Crazy talk... Plus I stated that this is purposely holding the Dragon back by trying to match MX levels... You haven't seen any of the other comparisons on Reduser between MX and Dragon or Alexa? Come on man
 
Seriously this thread is being used as fodder in Australia and for this reason this is probably my last post ever on reduser as i don't want to be dragged down in this crap.

Im not going to get involved in any fights or slagging matches here, but really this stuff being posted here is not helping the cause.

Sometimes all good intentions can be taken poorly.

Good luck
 
Adam Eden said:
Seriously this thread is being used as fodder in Australia and for this reason this is probably my last post ever on reduser as i don't want to be dragged down in this crap.

Im not going to get involved in any fights or slagging matches here, but really this stuff being posted here is not helping the cause.

Sometimes all good intentions can be taken poorly.

Good luck
Click to expand...

You're right, no one should post anything here. We'll let someone else do all the testing and spread it around the web on other sites... No point in testing our gear either. We'll just take everyone else's word for it.
 
Last thing i will ever say about this is...

Arri dont have Arriuser.net so there isn't a constant source of noise/fodder/bullshit like what we have here on Reduser.
 
Adam Eden said:
Last thing i will ever say about this is...

Arri dont have Arriuser.net so there isn't a constant source of noise/fodder/bullshit like what we have here on Reduser.
Click to expand...

This deserves a reply rather than a delete.

It's an interesting topic Adam and I know what you are getting at as I hear it around town occasionally. There are pros and cons to having an open forum where people can share, discuss, and learn. Red is a slightly different company and having that 1:1 feedback from owners, shooters, and those who just want to know more about the system is both useful and often frustrating. Arri does the same, but much of it is behind closed doors. Same for Sony and Canon for that matter.

For a long time my "job" was to understand and work with all cameras to find how to get the best possible image out of them. That's actually extended through here as I'm a Red owner and shooter, but it's also extended abroad for other camera systems and more recently lens information.

Often those new to shooting or working with cameras of this caliber provide the most frustration abroad among experienced shooters. Here it's a bit more visible. However, I know I've shown more than one "old school" DP how to use several of the digital cinema cameras released over the last few years. I also see the "work" I do here show up on set, in studios, and at rental houses. But there are many who browse these forums and never post due to how it could negatively effect their professional career. For instance, sometimes asking a simple question may be confused for "I have no idea what I'm doing". There are also some extremely seasoned professionals on this board who share useful information based on their years of experience. In one way or another it's good to give back to this community overall. Though there is a price and stigma that comes with all of that. That's just what it is.

Perhaps it would be better to be a bit more "on topic" most of the time. Perhaps it would be better to censor content and produce one well planned image. Perhaps it would service Red owners more if the forum was limited to that exact group and not for public consumption.

However, a DIT with a question at 4AM might find themselves in loads of trouble. A first time Red shooter might get stuck in an odd situation and need support that's outside of what Red themselves offer.

I will say this. And this is true for all cameras on the market today. There's so much misinformation and very strong opinions that have negatively impacted each camera manufacturer, rental houses, and shooters abroad. Often these opinions have traveled word of mouth, some are even formed from folks who have never shot with any of the cameras out there and more or less expressing a thought with no fuel behind it. The various web forums out there have helped clear up a lot of things for many. It's also made public an industry that was largely shrouded in mystery when I was a younger. In fact the boom of interest in cinematography (and imaging in general) world wide is an utterly fascinating phenomenon to me.

Information and thoughts can be dangerous things. They also can be powerful and useful things. Often it's how information is presented. Often it's more or less how people present themselves in this public arena that comes off strangely to some.

Advice to all (and this doesn't need to be said really), conduct yourselves in a professional and friendly manner here. Just like you would in front of a client or on set. Think of what is said, because once it's written here it's on the internet forever.

Back on topic of this thread. There's a lot of crazy about which camera is "top dog", worse so in the prosumer market than what goes on here. These comparisons get a little tedious, but these tests happen all over the world often at the head of a production. In many ways I get the fascination and the "hard data" is something that is needed to be known. In other ways I want everybody out there to test cameras for themselves to come to their own conclusions about which camera they prefer to use based on it's performance. More importantly, getting familiar with the cameras themselves rather than reading a stray blog post with some sort of sensational title that might formulate a rather odd opinion with strangely skewed information because their mother bought them some new toys. Not saying that's always the case though, but it alludes to part of the bigger problem in terms of inexperienced or misinformed individuals wanting to be in more public and visible light. Hopefully those who contribute their thoughts and experiments here on Reduser can rectify some of that chaos. Though, I know sometimes it can certainly produce more "energy" for others to frown down upon.

Cheers Adam. I understand fully what you're talking about and I feel it's more heedful than hurtful.
 
luigivaltulini said:
https://next-d.copy.com/qoHiO3YVWHrT
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting this footage. Here is a quick pass I did in Photoshop:

ktVJeba.jpg
 

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  • A021_C003_0127DQ.0000000.jpg
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I'm sorry that you have opened this thread, but I never said that these are testing. The tests are others. The tests are lates in a perfectly controlled.
They are real-life situations in an uncontrolled environment. There are also people who travel and make documentaries, ecc ecc only with the help of the camera and that's it, and maybe this helps you to understand how Dragon is also good in these situations.
Phil excuse why you find them little tedious?
If you want to take off the link and everything is back as before.
 
There should be no reason to remove the links or quit discussion just because some guy is complaining that the cmeras look similar.

The DRAGON sensor is starting to go out in to the real world, and someone's criticism on Reduser shouldn't scare anyone away from testing and sharing. I honestly find it very frustrating that people think otherwise.
 
luigivaltulini said:
I'm sorry that you have opened this thread, but I never said that these are testing. The tests are others. The tests are lates in a perfectly controlled.
They are real-life situations in an uncontrolled environment. There are also people who travel and make documentaries, ecc ecc only with the help of the camera and that's it, and maybe this helps you to understand how Dragon is also good in these situations.
Phil excuse why you find them little tedious?
If you want to take off the link and everything is back as before.
Click to expand...

Your images have been very informative.
No worries.

Thing is:
When developing images, people do not always see the premises for the developments.

There will always be people who put in the bad glasses.

I am thinking a lot about how to present "test" images these days...
 
I have seen an incredibly wide variety of lens tests and camera comparisons going back to the first Red One. So much is dependent on so many factors that if you really want to get meaningful info out af a test you MUST do it for yourself and bring it through a "real world" process that most closely mirrors whatever process you will use for the project at hand. Talk of best cameras or best workflow is silly and should be looked at case by case.

To have files to play with is great but I would never rely on them to make a truly informed choice. Adam I really don't understand how you or your clients expect to get meaningful info from an internet forum. If you have doubts wait till there is a dragon available and do your own comparison tests and then base your decision on that basis and that basis alone. The sword does not make the samurai and your clients should be interested in how does the camera operate in YOUR hands and using the post process that they are comfortable and or most accustomed with. Additionally, I agree there is much silliness on this forum and have bashed my head against the wall due to incredibly partisan or misinformed FUD that can spead like wildfire, but on the other hand there is an incredibly knowledgeable user base here that often provides very useful info. And BTW --> http://www.arridigital.com/forum/ Arri does have a forum.

Anyhow my 2 cents,

Noel
 
I personally think this conversation is a testament to what makes RED such an intriguing company: feedback on Reduser can be turbulent, unpredictable, chaotic, stimulating, maddening, inspired, you name it. But out of the chaos I genuinely believe comes great ideas. Nothing is for free, and progress can be painful, but I applaud RED for maintaining a level of transparency that is very rare in an industry more accustomed to secrecy and closed doors.
 
To ALL of those who have done MX vs Dragon etc. tests, let me say how thankful I am that you have
done them and posted them etc.

One thing is overwhelming clear... The DRAGON sensor is way better than MX and Alexa.
 
Phil Holland said:
This deserves a reply rather than a delete.

It's an interesting topic Adam and I know what you are getting at as I hear it around town occasionally. There are pros and cons to having an open forum where people can share, discuss, and learn. Red is a slightly different company and having that 1:1 feedback from owners, shooters, and those who just want to know more about the system is both useful and often frustrating. Arri does the same, but much of it is behind closed doors. Same for Sony and Canon for that matter.



For a long time my "job" was to understand and work with all cameras to find how to get the best possible image out of them. That's actually extended through here as I'm a Red owner and shooter, but it's also extended abroad for other camera systems and more recently lens information.

Often those new to shooting or working with cameras of this caliber provide the most frustration abroad among experienced shooters. Here it's a bit more visible. However, I know I've shown more than one "old school" DP how to use several of the digital cinema cameras released over the last few years. I also see the "work" I do here show up on set, in studios, and at rental houses. But there are many who browse these forums and never post due to how it could negatively effect their professional career. For instance, sometimes asking a simple question may be confused for "I have no idea what I'm doing". There are also some extremely seasoned professionals on this board who share useful information based on their years of experience. In one way or another it's good to give back to this community overall. Though there is a price and stigma that comes with all of that. That's just what it is.

Perhaps it would be better to be a bit more "on topic" most of the time. Perhaps it would be better to censor content and produce one well planned image. Perhaps it would service Red owners more if the forum was limited to that exact group and not for public consumption.

However, a DIT with a question at 4AM might find themselves in loads of trouble. A first time Red shooter might get stuck in an odd situation and need support that's outside of what Red themselves offer.

I will say this. And this is true for all cameras on the market today. There's so much misinformation and very strong opinions that have negatively impacted each camera manufacturer, rental houses, and shooters abroad. Often these opinions have traveled word of mouth, some are even formed from folks who have never shot with any of the cameras out there and more or less expressing a thought with no fuel behind it. The various web forums out there have helped clear up a lot of things for many. It's also made public an industry that was largely shrouded in mystery when I was a younger. In fact the boom of interest in cinematography (and imaging in general) world wide is an utterly fascinating phenomenon to me.

Information and thoughts can be dangerous things. They also can be powerful and useful things. Often it's how information is presented. Often it's more or less how people present themselves in this public arena that comes off strangely to some.

Advice to all (and this doesn't need to be said really), conduct yourselves in a professional and friendly manner here. Just like you would in front of a client or on set. Think of what is said, because once it's written here it's on the internet forever.

Back on topic of this thread. There's a lot of crazy about which camera is "top dog", worse so in the prosumer market than what goes on here. These comparisons get a little tedious, but these tests happen all over the world often at the head of a production. In many ways I get the fascination and the "hard data" is something that is needed to be known. In other ways I want everybody out there to test cameras for themselves to come to their own conclusions about which camera they prefer to use based on it's performance. More importantly, getting familiar with the cameras themselves rather than reading a stray blog post with some sort of sensational title that might formulate a rather odd opinion with strangely skewed information because their mother bought them some new toys. Not saying that's always the case though, but it alludes to part of the bigger problem in terms of inexperienced or misinformed individuals wanting to be in more public and visible light. Hopefully those who contribute their thoughts and experiments here on Reduser can rectify some of that chaos. Though, I know sometimes it can certainly produce more "energy" for others to frown down upon.

Cheers Adam. I understand fully what you're talking about and I feel it's more heedful than hurtful.
Click to expand...

It saddens me when things take this turn. Phil you make a lot of very valid points. For the foreseeable future there will still be debates about which is the best camera, there's absolutely no doubt about that.
Dragon vs MX sensor>>> most cameras show their best qualities in controlled environments in the hands of people who know what they are doing. This has always been the case. In the above comparison pictures between the dragon and the MX the images are indeed very similar, with the exception of Dynamic Range and mild resolution differences. On the charts however its a different story. I have never seen or used the Dragon before, but from the raw footage I've seen the images are richer than the Epic MX. It's going to be an awesome camera.
 
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