All the Epic/Dragon Vs. Alexa/Sony threads are belong to us...

[Evin Grant]

Please continue all your "Vs." conversations here. All future Vs. threads created by non-mods will be closed and merged to this thread.
Thanks for your cooperation!

 

[Matt Ryan]

Ok, again, I'm matching levels here for a comparison. This is subjective because I could have pushed Dragon further but for this example, purely matching levels to show the difference. All that was done is a curve on each to match histogram levels. Play with the files and you'll see MX is also noisier.

Luigi's R3D's: https://www.copy.com/s/Tuux0NHRoNWz/drag3.zip
https://www.copy.com/s/IaO73tTwtWen/DRAG5.zip 0.6 ND used

As you can see, there's just more info in the histogram of the Dragon and it fills out the entire range. Like I mentioned in the post above, inherent brightness on MX is 2/3'rds less than Dragon. If you shoot them with the same exposure at 800ISO, you have to boost the MX to 1280ISO to match brightness levels. Even then Dragon has a bit more brightness as well as much less noise at that point. And obviously more DR.

You can try this out on Luigi's images and bump the MX to 1280ISO and flip between the Dragon shot and that shot.

Dragon at 800ISO (Straight Redgamma 3, no adjustments)

MX at 1280ISO (Straight Redgamma 3, no adjustments)

Thank you Luigi for doing this test!

 

[luigivaltulini]

Great and thanks for your grade Matt, are just plain perfect.
I would add these 2 shots where I exhibited MX to have the face quite visible, while DRagon with the same settings and opening up, all the same, you can see a huge difference in DR, noise, colors eccecc.
https://copy.com/YhzNkpd0JMQU

 

[Matt Ryan]

Great and thanks for your grade Matt, are just plain perfect.
I would add these 2 shots where I exhibited MX to have the face quite visible, while DRagon with the same settings and opening up, all the same, you can see a huge difference in DR, noise, colors eccecc.
https://copy.com/YhzNkpd0JMQU

yup, can't forget that one.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Please continue all your "Vs." conversations here. All furutre Vs. threads created by non-mods will be closed and merged to this thread.
Thanks for your cooperation!

Evin,

Given the first posts here after the re-direction, it seems that we need a consolidated "Dragon vs. MX" thread too!

Edit: Thread title being "All the Epic/Dragon Vs. Alexa/Sony threads are belong to us… "

 

[luigivaltulini]

last shots, then my Epic part for the update on Monday ...
Now the contrary, I exposed Dragon, it is excessively, and then passed on Epic .. all the settings the same ..
I put 2 shots with the exaggerated flare ...
I recommend you play in Davinci and notice how spectacular is Dragon.
However, I have lost my eyes today, hehe the sun and the lake were almost blinding ... Holy shit ..

Matt, Grading hehe

playssssss
https://copy.com/2IUknraTODlR
https://copy.com/KN6E4nTf6lrl
https://copy.com/pW7YPin9iwzF

 

[Keith_D]

Thank you Luigi and Matt for these tests, this is very informative!

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I use the right tool for the job. I feel I can get better images, in terms of colors and picture quality out of an Alexa, but I want more resolution, I like to be able to stabilize, reframe, I like the look of Full Frame instead of s35. Alexa can't give me that right now. I do think the coming 4:3 sensor for anamorphic lenses gives a nice result and I belive I might shoot more with it when they come out with a 4K (4K delivery that is) camera, right now the 1080p isn't enough.

So, for me personally, there are good and bad things both ways, at this time I tend to lean more to Red because I feel it gives me what I need the most. I do feel Alexa gives me better colors, I'm not sure why, be it circular pixels or whatever, but the Alexa is in my opinion better at handling colors, Red is better for composition and FF imagery. Haven't tried Dragon yet, I'm hoping it will settle things with colors.

What I do not like is when the debate goes into the technical. It doesn't matter what the hell there is inside the camera. The only thing that matters is how it performs when working with it and how the images looks when you're done. Everything else is technical staff or geeks arguing bullshit, seriously.

P.S
Forgot to mention the F65 which in my eye outperforms both Red and Alexa in terms of images. Oblivion is one of the best looking digital cinema experiences I've ever encountered. Just look at those skin tones!
The drawback is that I feel it's a real clunky and bad camera on set, it's not as smooth in terms of workflow as the other two, which is a huge thing on set. But if you have an almost unlimited budget and time, then I would recommend the F65, hands down.
D.S

 

[Mark Toia]

It's not what you see straight out of the camera... As they don't really look that much different with the base REDCOLOR3 lut... its what you can dig out of the dragon RAW files compared to the MX RAW files that makes you say WOW !

 

[luigivaltulini]

It's not what you see straight out of the camera... As they don't really look that much different with the base REDCOLOR3 lut... its what you can dig out of the dragon RAW files compared to the MX RAW files that makes you say WOW !

:yesnod:

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Not sure we needed to merge the MX versus Dragon comparisons here, the point was to clean up all those Red vs. Alexa threads, but oh well... anything that stops all those simultaneous threads on the same topic.

 

[David Battistella]

I have rarely seen any this vs. that thread end well.

Ultimately they force polarized opinions and tend to get nasty.

But tu now that dragon is in the wild, it's fair to guess that there will be a hunger for this stuff.

battistella

 

[Matt Ryan]

last shots, then my Epic part for the update on Monday ...
Now the contrary, I exposed Dragon, it is excessively, and then passed on Epic .. all the settings the same ..
I put 2 shots with the exaggerated flare ...
I recommend you play in Davinci and notice how spectacular is Dragon.
However, I have lost my eyes today, hehe the sun and the lake were almost blinding ... Holy shit ..

Matt, Grading hehe

haha okay, same drill. Used a primary curve only on each to balance levels only. Like I've said before it's a bit subjective technically because I could push Dragon a bit further both ways. But this should give a good comparison at equal values on the histogram. I couldn't push the highlights near as far on MX to prevent blowing out so in some cases I actually pulled them back to keep some details. One thing I noticed is if you switch both to Linear, it becomes quite obvious how much more info is in the Dragon footage. Play with the R3D's yourself, don't just take my word for it Thanks again Luigi!

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I have rarely seen any this vs. that thread end well.

Ultimately they force polarized opinions and tend to get nasty.

But tu now that dragon is in the wild, it's fair to guess that there will be a hunger for this stuff.

battistella

It is challenging, and I am thinking abut how to treat the data I come back with from Bristol.

 

[luigivaltulini]

However, I am still curious to see the dynamic range between Alexa and Dragon.
Or someone has already tried it?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I am gonna have a lot of data on those things (and like 9 other cameras) in roughly three weeks.
Not only DR.

Still thinking of a way to use it.
And even IF and how it can be presented here without dissolving into pure noise.

I have a pretty clear idea from earlier testing on how it will fall.
And I think there might be a surprise or two in the equation. I hope to get to test for those scenarios.

But in a few ways, I think it is telling that the Dragon seems to gain traction.

As to the vs Epic threads... Mine is still open and has a bit of good discussion in it, unless the mods wants to close it (oh the irony, but I am still kinda adjusting...) I think that would be a good place to put those comparisons.
The theme is a bit relevant for those who want to decide what they pay for one upgrading.

 

[Phil Holland]

It's not what you see straight out of the camera... As they don't really look that much different with the base REDCOLOR3 lut... its what you can dig out of the dragon RAW files compared to the MX RAW files that makes you say WOW !

Agreed, although I'll say there's way more chroma information and separation across values on Dragon from the get go. In terms of getting things very right "straight out of camera" I think they did an utterly fantastic job.

I've been digging around and spent about 60 hours recently tinkering with various LUTs, some from my film days even, to work up the linear files and there's a lot of juicy color info in there that looks good when pushed hard.

On actual jobs this year so far I've been rocking REDcolor3/REDlogFilm and that's giving me the "taste" I want from the get go, but there's more in there still.

 

[Les Hillis]

I am gonna have a lot of data on those things (and like 9 other cameras) in roughly three weeks.
Not only DR.

Still thinking of a way to use it.
And even IF and how it can be presented here without dissolving into pure noise...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method ?

Aims, methods, conclusions. What were you looking for, how did you look for it, what did you find? The results of specific, objective, fact based testing and research can still be misused, but the more clearly you define the limits of what, why and how you did what you did, the easier it will be to identify and dismiss the efforts of those who might then try to take what you did out of context and twist your results to fit some other agenda. Just let the objective facts speak for themselves, being honest and open about your aims and methods, and pay no mind to those who might use your work to draw their own false conclusions or reinforce their biased beliefs or subjective opinions.

Or don't. Whatever, lol.

 

[shashbugu]

Not sure we needed to merge the MX versus Dragon comparisons here, the point was to clean up all those Red vs. Alexa threads, but oh well... anything that stops all those simultaneous threads on the same topic.

Every other thread will be merged on here because that's all most people on reduser care about

 

[Noel R.]

I don't think it's just about post, Dragon looks cleaner, amazing highlight roll off, and colors feel natural. I believe in terms of image quality Dragon has a leg up on the Alexa. It still has more contrast than the Alexa, but if you want less contrast you can always add low con filters.

Edit: Also I think perhaps when doing tests of Dragon vs Alexa why not try a shot with a low con filter on Dragon. I have a feeling that when these tests are done, its not all going to be dynamic range and color, but also how pleasant an image looks. I hear DP's mention often that digital has too much contrast, and apparently the Alexa has low con built in.