All the Epic/Dragon Vs. Alexa/Sony threads are belong to us...

[Samir Patel]

Any news on Scarlet Dragon yet?

 

[Evin Grant]

Edit: Also I think perhaps when doing tests of Dragon vs Alexa why not try a shot with a low con filter on Dragon. I have a feeling that when these tests are done, its not all going to be dynamic range and color, but also how pleasant an image looks. I hear DP's mention often that digital has too much contrast, and apparently the Alexa has low con built in.

I tested every soft and Low con filter out there and the best one for matching an Alexa is a Schneider 1/16th HD classic soft. It has the same low con effect as a 1/8 Digicon or Lowcon but adds just a teeny tiny amount of halation to souces that really looks nice.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I am gonna have a lot of data on those things (and like 9 other cameras) in roughly three weeks.
Not only DR. Still thinking of a way to use it.

One idea: use the DSC Labs Ultra High Dynamic Range Chart:

 

[Ketch Rossi]

One thing I am always reminded by at any time I read many of the Epic vs. Alexa comments, is how it was when talking to photographers that just started shooting Digital and shooting Raw vs. jpeg, they would always say that Raw always looked washed out and that was the reason they preferred shooting jpeg and that their client love it better too... ROLLS HEAD BIG TIME...

Funny thing is that years later, and with not only now Photoshop, is the norm, and a series of specific software exist for each camera manufacturer to decode their own Raw files, yet I still come across some Photographers that while shooting with the TOP cameras... STILL SHOOT JPEG for the same reason... LOL...

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

RED Epic Dragon workflow: RedLogFilm, WB set on Greta MB ColorChart Grey colour bottom third from the left, FLUT 1.5, Saturation 1.15, output full res tiff,
imported to PS6, Nik Color Effex, White Neutralizer picked from Greta MB ColorChart Grey colour bottom third from the left,
Look >>>Film Modern > Fujichrome Sensia 200, no additional adjustment, output to full res web jpg.
Right-click option does offer to open the full size image in New Window/Tab!!!

RED Epic MX workflow: RedLogFilm, WB set on Greta MB ColorChart Grey colour top third from the right, FLUT 1.5, Saturation 1.15, output full res tiff,
imported to PS6, Nik Color Effex, White Neutralizer picked from Greta MB ColorChart Grey colour top third from the right,
Look >>>Film Modern > Fujichrome Sensia 200, no additional adjustment, output to full res web jpg.
Right-click option does offer to open the full size image in New Window/Tab!!!

 

[Noel R.]

I tested every soft and Low con filter out there and the best one for matching an Alexa is a Schneider 1/16th HD classic soft. It has the same low con effect as a 1/8 Digicon or Lowcon but adds just a teeny tiny amount of halation to souces that really looks nice.

Nice, will give that a shot on the MX, but I'd like to see what that looks like on Dragon, particularly on skin. I recall a certain REDuser who got banned was advocating that Dragon still had "That Look"? I believe that's what it is, it's the contrast. I'm curious to see what Dragon looks like with a low con on. I think that would confirm where "That Look" is really coming from.

 

[Noel R.]

Playing around on DaVinci at 2000 iso utilizing power windows to pull what I could without breaking the image. The difference between Dragon and MX is night and day.

Edit: Also the MX has a good taste of magenta riding the highlights and shadows. After seeing the new OLPF on Dragon, I'm curious if this is the case with the MX also, and if that would improve were the OLPF on the MX was also replaced.

 

[David Battistella]

Congrats on becoming a moderator! Good luck with the testing. I don't envy having to do that stuff you are going to do in Bristol. Those things tend to turn into hornets nests.

battistella

I am gonna have a lot of data on those things (and like 9 other cameras) in roughly three weeks.
Not only DR.

Still thinking of a way to use it.
And even IF and how it can be presented here without dissolving into pure noise.

I have a pretty clear idea from earlier testing on how it will fall.
And I think there might be a surprise or two in the equation. I hope to get to test for those scenarios.

But in a few ways, I think it is telling that the Dragon seems to gain traction.

As to the vs Epic threads... Mine is still open and has a bit of good discussion in it, unless the mods wants to close it (oh the irony, but I am still kinda adjusting...) I think that would be a good place to put those comparisons.
The theme is a bit relevant for those who want to decide what they pay for one upgrading.

 

[Evin Grant]

Nice, will give that a shot on the MX, but I'd like to see what that looks like on Dragon, particularly on skin. I recall a certain REDuser who got banned was advocating that Dragon still had "That Look"? I believe that's what it is, it's the contrast. I'm curious to see what Dragon looks like with a low con on. I think that would confirm where "That Look" is really coming from.

I know who you're talking about and he was banned for pushing the wrong buttons, not asking questions. As far as the "look" he was referencing that was still a very early proto camera using the same color science both inside and in post as the Epic, so it's not surprising that things were similar. I can tell you just from my last few days shooting Dragon the color is at a whole notha' level.

 

[Noel R.]

I know who you're talking about and he was banned for pushing the wrong buttons, not asking questions. As far as the "look" he was referencing that was still a very early proto camera using the same color science both inside and in post as the Epic, so it's not surprising that things were similar. I can tell you just from my last few days shooting Dragon the color is at a whole notha' level.

Yes, that came off wrong, he was coming off strong with his opinion. Didn't mean to insinuate that he got banned for asking questions, but I think the question is still valid. I've been looking at a lot of Arri Alexa footage, and there is definitely some low contrast there. Arri in my opinion did have better color science, but Dragon has improved what the MX was lacking. It would be great to compare Dragon with new color science, and new OLPF, but decisions will be made on the currently available model.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Apparent contrast could also be due to the gamma.

I guess that there is better ways to check "actual" contrast than RG3 vs Alexa REC709.

Without bringing up the hornets nest of "how do they make the Alexa the way it is", which in many ways is irrelevant because it is what it is, I think that there are many other factors to a good image than pure DR, and besides having good DR, the Dragon image checks on many points I like. As mentioned a few times, I would have taken the upgrade for the image-characteristics alone, even with equal DR and resolution to the Epic.

Dragon is a new camera, and should be treated as that, all the way from set to post to analytics.

 

[Will Keir]

Thank you for doing these side by side comparisons Matt.

Ok, again, I'm matching levels here for a comparison. This is subjective because I could have pushed Dragon further but for this example, purely matching levels to show the difference. All that was done is a curve on each to match histogram levels. Play with the files and you'll see MX is also noisier.

Thank you Luigi for doing this test!

 

[Marc Wielage]

Playing around on DaVinci at 2000 iso utilizing power windows to pull what I could without breaking the image. The difference between Dragon and MX is night and day.

I bet I could match them 100% using luminance keys and articulated tracking power windows. I don't see a profound difference provided nothing is clipping and there's enough fill light. A good colorist can almost always salvage this kind of footage, but much more depends on the DP than the camera or the chip.

 

[Noel R.]

I bet I could match them 100% using luminance keys and articulated tracking power windows. I don't see a profound difference provided nothing is clipping and there's enough fill light. A good colorist can almost always salvage this kind of footage, but much more depends on the DP than the camera or the chip.

Well yes with a good amount of fill this shot wouldn't be a problem with Epic, but this is a test shot which demonstrates the difference in latitude and color. I think most DP's would still use fill, Dragon or not. You could get Epic close with a ton of secondaries, I don't think it will be as clean, and it's more work than most people need.



Dragon 2000 iso ( same grade as my last, minimal secondaries)

Epic 3200 iso (A ton of secondaries and denoising)

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I don't see a profound difference provided nothing is clipping and there's enough fill light.

Considering that Dragon should have two or so more stops of dynamic range than the MX sensor, in theory there would be a number of cases where something really bright would be clipped on the MX image but not on the Dragon image. Sure, if you shot everything so that nothing was clipped, the issue then becomes noise at the bottom end, but even then, you'd think that you'd have an easier time dealing with a cleaner image.

I recall when I got my Nikon D600 after owning a Canon T2i Rebel for some years and the quality seemed similar in bright daylight scenes shot at low ISO's -- until I had to dig something out of the shadows, then the cleaner signal with the wider dynamic range of the D600 image made a big difference in the quality of that lifted area, I could push the image around a lot more easily before the artifacts become too annoying.

 

[Matt Ryan]

I bet I could match them 100% using luminance keys and articulated tracking power windows. I don't see a profound difference provided nothing is clipping and there's enough fill light. A good colorist can almost always salvage this kind of footage, but much more depends on the DP than the camera or the chip.

Marc, you should really download the R3D's and see for yourself instead of commenting on others examples. It kind of takes the professionalism out of your statements having not tried the clips yourself.

 

[Jean Maurizio]

Well yes with a good amount of fill this shot wouldn't be a problem with Epic, but this is a test shot which demonstrates the difference in latitude and color. I think most DP's would still use fill, Dragon or not. You could get Epic close with a ton of secondaries, I don't think it will be as clean, and it's more work than most people need.



Dragon 2000 iso ( same grade as my last, minimal secondaries)

Epic 3200 iso (A ton of secondaries and denoising)

Only my two cent, but with all this Neat Video applied, a 6k camera become an SD camera. If i have to go on a result like you did oh the Epic 3200 iso image, i'll buy a Panasonic DVX100.

 

[Noel R.]

Only my two cent, but with all this Neat Video applied, a 6k camera become an SD camera. If i have to go on a result like you did oh the Epic 3200 iso image, i'll buy a Panasonic DVX100.

Right, I don't think it looks good either. That was my response to Marc who said he could get Dragon and Epic to look the same. The amount of latitude you have to work with on Dragon is significantly greater than Epic. Don't take my word for it. All anyone has to do is download these two files and see for yourself.

 

[Jean Maurizio]

Right, I don't think it looks good either. That was my response to Marc who said he could get Dragon and Epic to look the same. The amount of latitude you have to work with on Dragon is significantly greater than Epic. Don't take my word for it. All anyone has to do is download these two files and see for yourself.

What do you think about mixing the rumors with organic grain? (Like Filmconvert grain, or other software)

Can it work?

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

So how did the Epic- the best camera in the world few months ago , just become SD camera like DVX? all of the sudden?
you guys are funny- bashing your child that was your favorite just a year ago...