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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

All quiet on the (RED)western front ...

Jarred Land said:
Jon, you might thing it is absurd but so are your assumptions on both counts.

It has nothing to do with ARRI. It has to do with what our customers ask us for.

And If it was just putting PL mounts inside a vice and machining extra holes we wouldn't be having this discussion. Our cameras use smart mounts, which means there are electronics and custom boards inside every mount, and to add LDS we need to not only make new mechanicals, but make all new boards and flex cables and all the electrical and mechanical engineering that comes with it.
Click to expand...

any news on this PL mount? it would be amazing to have pl mount that accepts both LDS and Cooke i/ system.
From FDTimes interview;

ARRI Alexa 65 lenses have an XPL Mount (64 mm diameter, 60 mm flange depth).
The good news is that we started the trend of making an inter- changeable mount on the camera. We can go any way the indus- try goes by just making a new mount instead of a new camera.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
any news on this PL mount? it would be amazing to have pl mount that accepts both LDS and Cooke i/ system.
From FDTimes interview;

ARRI Alexa 65 lenses have an XPL Mount (64 mm diameter, 60 mm flange depth).
The good news is that we started the trend of making an inter- changeable mount on the camera. We can go any way the indus- try goes by just making a new mount instead of a new camera.
Click to expand...


Exchangeable mounts are nothing new, Fries Engineering was doing it to Mitchell camera for almost 30 years starting in the 1970's.
 
Kemalettin Sert said:
even techwise both same :/ except red one type locking handles.
Click to expand...

When upgrading I think red lets us keep the ti mounts... even though the upgrade demands us to buy a mg mount. To me that sounds like the second hand market for red pl mounts will fall like a rock from the sky as I think it´s unlikely that people will feel that they need two pl mounts for thier camera, no?

Or atelast I see no reason to not sell one of the two. What is the difference between the new mg pl and al pl?

screws stay put in the mg and it´s more light weight, is that it? or is there any flocking or such that makes it better for 8k? I guess the old mount is not really suited for a bigger sensor cavity or?
 
Russ Fill said:
Im pretty sure my Bomb rep said that what ever came with the camera needs to go back with it for the upgrade.
Seems kind of a wast as we will probably need a new mount to facilitate the 8K sensor later..
Click to expand...

We are still a little ways from 8K becoming a reality, but I believe part of the upgrade cost to 8K is to cover the either new/modified 8K PL (and perhaps other) mounts.

If you look on the back of the current PL Mounts there's a circuit board surround the lens port. That will need to be all brand new for the 8K mount.

Too early to know anything really. RED really wants to nail 8K though. For premiere applications and those who the resolution and format size interest, it's going to be a massive achievement.
 
Jarred Land said:
Jon, you might thing it is absurd but so are your assumptions on both counts.

It has nothing to do with ARRI. It has to do with what our customers ask us for.

And If it was just putting PL mounts inside a vice and machining extra holes we wouldn't be having this discussion. Our cameras use smart mounts, which means there are electronics and custom boards inside every mount, and to add LDS we need to not only make new mechanicals, but make all new boards and flex cables and all the electrical and mechanical engineering that comes with it.
Click to expand...

Jarred,

Not to bring up a sore point, but I and many others asked for LDS compatibility way back in the Red One days. Back then, I believe we were told that it wasn't possible because the LDS system was an Arri proprietary technology. Customers have been asking about it every time a new camera was released. It didn't happen when the Epic body and mount was designed, and now here's the Weapon...with a new mount, but no LDS/iData capability. When Weapon was designed, I would think that circuitry could have been engineered into the body and mount. Not trying to pick a fight. I just wish it was there. Ironically, I just sold my LDS Ultra Primes and never had the chance to take advantage of it on any of my Reds, and I am buying a 19-90 and 85-300 Cabrio, and still can't use their LDS data capability.

Bummer.
M
 
Joining Mark's comment, I'm "all in" on an 8K CF WEAPON package. I would be delighted if it supported my Cabrio's LDS functionality natively with no extra power or cable requirements. Also not trying to pick a fight, but its also something I would have expected for a major new product iteration (EPIC -> WEAPON) that comes with a major step up in cost.
 
Mark Pedersen said:
Jarred,

Not to bring up a sore point, but I and many others asked for LDS compatibility way back in the Red One days. Back then, I believe we were told that it wasn't possible because the LDS system was an Arri proprietary technology. Customers have been asking about it every time a new camera was released. It didn't happen when the Epic body and mount was designed, and now here's the Weapon...with a new mount, but no LDS/iData capability. When Weapon was designed, I would think that circuitry could have been engineered into the body and mount. Not trying to pick a fight. I just wish it was there. Ironically, I just sold my LDS Ultra Primes and never had the chance to take advantage of it on any of my Reds, and I am buying a 19-90 and 85-300 Cabrio, and still can't use their LDS data capability.

Bummer.
M
Click to expand...

+1 LDS needs to come if Red still wants the functionality expected of the highest end cameras. Lens meta data is increasingly important. And I already know productions where Red would have been chosen if it supported LDS, but they went with Alexa & Sony. I guess there must be dozens and dozens of cases like this... Sony support both i/interface and LDS on the same mount, it can be done.
 
Doing a retrospective on this revived thread.. IMHO the LDS question at a minimum seems a pretty "conscious" problem in the RED community so hopefully our RED chiefs are taking notice of this 'voice of the customer' alongside their own assumptions of the importance of the tech, manufacturing costs and likely on-flow costs to end customers. You can pretty confidently stop talking about how much something costs to innovate, engineer and deliver when there's reasonably vocal sentiment in your advocate customer base, and switch the conversation to practical +cost/effort discussions to deliver what your customers want.

Over to you RED :)
 
ignition said:
Doing a retrospective on this revived thread.. IMHO the LDS question at a minimum seems a pretty "conscious" problem in the RED community so hopefully our RED chiefs are taking notice of this 'voice of the customer' alongside their own assumptions of the importance of the tech, manufacturing costs and likely on-flow costs to end customers. You can pretty confidently stop talking about how much something costs to innovate, engineer and deliver when there's reasonably vocal sentiment in your advocate customer base, and switch the conversation to practical +cost/effort discussions to deliver what your customers want.

Over to you RED :)
Click to expand...
They are listening...
 
Just as a reference, I'd pay an extra $500 for a mount that included LDS, even $1,000 - but not $2,000 more. One of the things that drew me to RED initially was the sophisticated workflows it could support. Jarred's post leads me to believe RED is not willing to spend the resources to develop something they aren't certain will be popular enough to cover the dev. Sounds like good business sense to me. That said, if enough people are willing to place advance deposits for such a beast, my guess is that RED would build them...

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
Just as a reference, I'd pay an extra $500 for a mount that included LDS, even $1,000 - but not $2,000 more. One of the things that drew me to RED initially was the sophisticated workflows it could support. Jarred's post leads me to believe RED is not willing to spend the resources to develop something they aren't certain will be popular enough to cover the dev. Sounds like good business sense to me. That said, if enough people are willing to place advance deposits for such a beast, my guess is that RED would build them...

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

Arri and Sony requested deposit for making better pl mounts? Its so simple, we are coming to end of 2015 and Red can make LDS & i/ supported PL mount easily.If they dont want to make one please let 3rd party manufacturers make it from 500-1000$.
DSMC MG PL MOUNT 2.0 is 3500$ and i find that price is nonsense.There is no logic behind that price.
 
I take your point Kemalettin, but it's a numbers game and I'd expect RED to have a pretty good idea of how many LDS takers would be required to cover the NRE. Perhaps a poll or other method to show RED how many people care about this feature would suffice, rather than an advance deposit.

Of course my dog in this fight is the desire to power and control the Fujinon Cabrio right from the lens mount collar. I'm guessing that is also a case of too much NRE for the number of likely buyers.

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
I take your point Kemalettin, but it's a numbers game and I'd expect RED to have a pretty good idea of how many LDS takers would be required to cover the NRE. Perhaps a poll or other method to show RED how many people care about this feature would suffice, rather than an advance deposit.

Of course my dog in this fight is the desire to power and control the Fujinon Cabrio right from the lens mount collar. I'm guessing that is also a case of too much NRE for the number of likely buyers.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

Arri Ti PL mount (LDS, /i Tech with L-Bus connector) price is 1500$. Red's MG PL mount is 3500$.I bet there are less than 500 Alexa Mini out there against 10.000 + Red cameras. (epic and scarlets)
Red's price tag guy must have been gone crazy.Lets talk about NRE :)
 
arri has a different mount system in that the entire camera/sensor attaches with no bend, so buying the front piece from Arri doesn't account for the rest of the engineering behind it i imagine
 
I was told Alexa doesn't have issues cuz the mounts one solid piece and can never distort. I believe Arri says the same thing about mini and Amira but will try to find a quote later I'm under the gun atm on some encodes
 
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