720P and 1080P... losers

[Zk2007]

If you are only considering cinema i.e.: filmmaking, then 720p doesn't make much sense as a format. But from a broadcast stand point it still makes lots of sense to be able to record cheap and dirty 720p on the fly. I guess as most people in these boards seem to be filmmakers or director wannabes and fewer are working broadcast people, it's only natural people will favor higher resolution over anything else. It's just the trauma of years of low-rez ban. But 720p still make sense.
Now about 1080p I will just keep it to myself. I find it funny people praising 2K and bashing 1080p when the difference is negligible when using a 16:9 sensor, and I will just leave it at that.

 

[Antoine Fabi]

When we say "things can and will change"... take it to the bank.

I love this company...

Jim

I realise now that when i reserved my RED camera, i have been victim of misrepresentation. The camera will do so much more than i expected.

If you could eventually record 120 fps at 2K ? Man ! It would be incredible. I vote for that.

Even if i'm just a customer, i love this company too.
...it's all about arrogant attitude in the best possible way.

Dream loud and make dreams come true.

Cheers !

 

[Jason Francois]

I'd love for the camera to do everything.....but....

....you can't be everything to everybody.

No matter how amazing the camera is upon release and no matter how many features it has somebody is going to get their feelings hurt.

I would still like to shoot 720 or 1080 at 120fps, but I really think it should go. This camera is the future and in no time we'll be able to upgrade it to handle 2k and much higher framerates.



I know I'm not going to get everything I want, but I'm certain I'll get more than I need.

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Make an executive decision and whack 720.

If we consider the existing non-film cameras such as Varicam and F900 -what are they providing for frame rates? Exactly. Resolution? Ditto. This camera for its price is so superior to anything else out there. Even the SI-2K is doing 72 frames at 720, meaning 2K at 96 FPS is a functionality that goes well above. It's the only thing that comes close at this point.

Of course we can then jump back into the film cam side, but as many have iterated over the last several hours, if you're shooting and there's a requirement for anything over 96 frames, either do it in post, or rent a film cam for your specials. The RED One for its price -are we getting too greedy? Are we taking Jim's management and leadership skills for granted by demanding he give us a tool that does too much, and yet is of superior imaging quality...isn't this unit to ultimately assist with our narratives?

 

[Anders Holck]

IThe advantage of 720p and 1080p as I see them are:

...
*Also you have less data to deal with. So post is faster, less of a burden on CPU's and hard drives.

*The disadvantage is less pixels.

The big difference is that RAW is already compressed 3:1 in the bayer pattern.

RGB needs 36bit per pixel, RAW only 12.

So a 1080p RGB image is actually around 3/4 the size of a 4k RAW, when uncompressed.
This makes subsequent compression much milder.

2k RAW is almost 1/3 the data of 1080p RGB

Reconstruction and processing of the RAW image is of course more processor intensive.

 

[Mathieu Ghekiere]

Sorry to hijack this thread, but I don't think I still quite get all the format options of RED (just as Jay A Kelley, nice to see I'm not alone ;-))

Just as a check up: is it (now?) possible to shoot 2K REDCODE RAW with 35mm DOF?

On topic: I don't really care what you choose, although I hope that the conversion to HD in REDCINE will be pretty quick.
Also (you all have to know my opinion is that of a NON-Customer - I don't have the budget for a RED, unfortunately) I WOULDN'T go for the extra 4k payment and bigger FPGA.
Leave that for a RED 2 or a later optional upgrade, would be my advice.

Thanks and best regards,

PS: It's nice to notice that if RED delivered their camera like they promised a year and a half ago, everybody would been raving about this revolutinary camera, and their work *could* be considered *finished*. Instead, they try to keep making the camera better and better.
Nice to know the RED team considers their job *never* to be finished

 

[Chester Lehmann]

My choice => 2K@96fps or more

 

[Brandon Freeman]

As an uneducated filmmaker who thinks RED makes purty pictures...

I've seen some great 24p footage cranked to higher speeds in post -- that clip that was posted here on this thread was a perfect example. Why in the heck would 96fps even be a worry? Imagine what you can do with that!!

Keep 2K resolution at high speeds alive, please. 720p uprezzed to 2k or 4k? Gonna be ugly, in my opinion. If you have to choose, go 2k.

As far as 720p and 1080p on general principle, I see how they are important for the camera-man that seeks to use it for other work, but honestly, I'm not buying this camera till I have funding to use it for one thing -- features. For short films, weddings, corporate vids, etc., my paid off HVR-Z1U will work for years, especially once I get the Letus35 flip.

My point is, RED seems overkill for anything other than full budget projects. Sure, the price is revolutionary, but people, a good set-up is still 30-freakin'-K! So, my vote is to keep the camera geared towards the movies, and movies need resolution more than high speed. Again, there are great tools to push an already great speed even farther.

 

[Larry]

... also in favour of 2K@96/100fps. For me it seems likely the broadcasters will start to insist on 1080p/i master tapes/files and that the 720p format will disappear rather soon. In my ears the wording *cinema* already suggests Red is meant to shoot material which is rather archieved than thrown awy after the first use?

 

[Anders Holck]

Just as a check up: is it (now?) possible to shoot 2K REDCODE RAW with 35mm DOF?

No changes here. RAW is still only cropped.
4K RAW reads 4096 horizontal photosites, 2k RAW reads 2048.

The big news is 96 fps instead of 60 fps in onboard 2k redcode RAW.

 

[Elijah Kelley]

2K@96... please...

Thank you again. I don't think I'm being selfish just looking out for my best interest. :innocent: those oxymorons pop up everywhere.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

I'm jumping in here way late and haven't read to the end... but I don't see "But then we don't need to downrez" as a valid excuse.

1) 720 and 1080RGB is in REDCode. That's not a deliverable codec.
2) If the client is going to convert to a useable format they might as well downrez from 2k.
3) If the client can use REDCode and doesn't need to convert to another format then they can just use 2k RAW and not debayer anyway.

Also in regards to the discussion of 16mm vs 35mm DOF... You're shooting overcranked footage... I'm guessing your aperture is wide open. And I'm guessing you're probably shooting the rest of your project with a smaller aperture. There you go... 35mm DOF.

 

[luis bustamante]

yes, we prefer windowed 2k @ 96 fps over 720p all the way. Ditch 1080p as well if you want, no use for that either over here.

Also, we would absolutely pay the additional 4 grand to get 120 fps on camera, but maybe it's a bit too late for that.

Jim, as always thanks for everything!

 

[Johnny Friday]

Shooting undewater docs......I'm all for 2k @ 96fps.....1080p & 720p will be a final product for me in 99% of the case, but I'd much prefer shooting 2k Red raw and downrez from 2k or 4k. Clearly I see no huge benefit in 120fps VS. 96fps----can take care of that in post if necessary.

I raise my hand for 2k at 96fps!!
Thanks for asking the community

 

[Joe Carney]

If you are only considering cinema i.e.: filmmaking, then 720p doesn't make much sense as a format. But from a broadcast stand point it still makes lots of sense to be able to record cheap and dirty 720p on the fly. I guess as most people in these boards seem to be filmmakers or director wannabes and fewer are working broadcast people, it's only natural people will favor higher resolution over anything else. It's just the trauma of years of low-rez ban. But 720p still make sense.
Now about 1080p I will just keep it to myself. I find it funny people praising 2K and bashing 1080p when the difference is negligible when using a 16:9 sensor, and I will just leave it at that.

It's because 2K is so close to 1080p many feel 1080p is redundant. Final output can be anything you want.
I don't see RED as a real time broadcast camera just yet.

 

[Marc Higa]

What's the advantage if we scrap 2k all together and lets just make this a 4k camera always. Would we gain anything if 2k is off the menu? When you shoot 35mm we always down convert to HD, SD... why not with Redcine.

So I say scrap 2k, but only if this might allow us to get 4k@96fps.

Is this possible?

 

[I Bloom]

As an uneducated filmmaker who thinks RED makes purty pictures...

I've seen some great 24p footage cranked to higher speeds in post -- that clip that was posted here on this thread was a perfect example. Why in the heck would 96fps even be a worry? Imagine what you can do with that!!

Keep 2K resolution at high speeds alive, please. 720p uprezzed to 2k or 4k? Gonna be ugly, in my opinion. If you have to choose, go 2k.

As far as 720p and 1080p on general principle, I see how they are important for the camera-man that seeks to use it for other work, but honestly, I'm not buying this camera till I have funding to use it for one thing -- features. For short films, weddings, corporate vids, etc., my paid off HVR-Z1U will work for years, especially once I get the Letus35 flip.

My point is, RED seems overkill for anything other than full budget projects. Sure, the price is revolutionary, but people, a good set-up is still 30-freakin'-K! So, my vote is to keep the camera geared towards the movies, and movies need resolution more than high speed. Again, there are great tools to push an already great speed even farther.

Aren't you basically saying, "I'm not buying a red until my ship comes in."
Instead of saying "I can make this system pay for itself and also work toward my dreams." I've only shot one wedding in my life, for my cousin, but you know what, that day I would have killed for 11+ stops of dynamic range and the ability to up the gain without gross noise. A wedding videographer shooting on RED has a serious leg up.

Doesn't a 720p RED cut straight into the huge market for Prosumer Camera combined with 35mm adapters. Plus without annoying light loss, slipping focus on the ground glass and flipped images.

I see the two sides of this discussion like this:
The 2K'ers say, "Give me a more awesome toys."
The 720/1080p'ers say "Help this make money for me."
Who is more likely to come back and upgrade to RED Two.

I'm in favor of multiple builds. It would be great if we could set the camera up for either mode.

IBloom

 

[Anders Holck]

1) 720 and 1080RGB is in REDCode. That's not a deliverable codec.

It actually is. There is a Quicktime codec, and announced support for FCP.

2) If the client is going to convert to a useable format they might as well downrez from 2k.

The key here is that 2k is cropped only.

If we ditch 1080p, the only way to get full 35mm format is to shoot 4k. That means you need to debayer and scale to get 1080p.

 

[Brandon Freeman]

Aren't you basically saying, "I'm not buying a red until my ship comes in."
Instead of saying "I can make this system pay for itself and also work toward my dreams." I've only shot one wedding in my life, for my cousin, but you know what, that day I would have killed for 11+ stops of dynamic range. A wedding videographer shooting on RED has a serious leg up.

I see the two sides of this discussion like this:
The 2K'ers say, "Give me a more awesome toys."
The 720/1080p'ers say "Help this make money for me."
Who is more likely to come back and upgrade to RED Two.

I'm in favor of multiple builds. It would be great if we could set the camera up for either mode.

IBloom

Well, with all due respect to RED and Jim, I don't need a particular camera to fulfill my dreams. That comes from hard work and dedication, as well as people skills. I come from the school of thought that you work your way up as opposed to jump into the water without a plan. So, yeah, I am waiting for my ship to come in before I get a RED, but I'm also getting ready for that ship by making films now with the tools I have, and building relationships with those that can help me get where I need to go.

As far as weddings and corporate vids? I just don't see the need being justified. I sure as heck would not let anyone touch my RED for anything like that. They'd get a video system, not a digital cinema system.

 

[I Bloom]

Well, with all due respect to RED and Jim, I don't need a particular camera to fulfill my dreams. That comes from hard work and dedication, as well as people skills. I come from the school of thought that you work your way up as opposed to jump into the water without a plan. So, yeah, I am waiting for my ship to come in before I get a RED, but I'm also getting ready for that ship by making films now with the tools I have, and building relationships with those that can help me get where I need to go.

As far as weddings and corporate vids? I just don't see the need being justified. I sure as heck would not let anyone touch my RED for anything like that. They'd get a video system, not a digital cinema system.

You can plan forever, eventually you have to jump in the water. Besides if the camera is only going to be used when you make a movie than it sounds like you should be renting a RED not buying it.

IBloom