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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

720P and 1080P... losers

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96fps at 2k is more desirable.... (my opinion for my 2 camera's on order)

especially if you can record at higher frame rates at 4k (with red ram rather than a fridge).... even if it is not 60fps.. 40fps would be a great start..

please drop all non-raw recording and re-direct all development resources to higher frame rates at 2k and 4k and the other features.. (like 235 or 2 by 1 with full chip width)

As for the people who need fast turn around? I would go straight to tape from camera? Or perhaps Red can offer a RT GPU driven SD (and maybe HD) output from redcine with appropriate hardware.. if RT HD is possible by mid 2008s with the fastest hardware you can buy this would annul the fast turn around argument..

Michael Lindsay
 
Well that's a hard choice!!!

Some argument to keep the RGB option and therefore 120fps recording

Jesper Holmström said:
I would prefer shooting redcode raw all the time...BUT 1080p scaled RGB is the only way of shooting up to 60p onboard with 35mm DOF.
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Justin Anderson said:
Also shooting 720p at 120fps allows us to use the 35mm frame whereas 2K would limit us to the 16mm frame. Frame rate and film plane size are the only reasons I can think of to keep the RGB options.
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What really decide me to reserve the camera, except the fantastic spirit of the RED team, it is the MODULARITY. Ok I have understood, it is not possible to have both 720p@120fps and 2K@96fps

BUT IF I HAVE TO CHOOSE, THEN I WILL GO FOR 2K @ 96FPS.

antoine.
 
96fps at 2k is fine for the type of work I do. But Jim, I have to ask you, could you possibly, down the line of course, manufacture a high-speed RED camera.........something along the lines of a 4.5k Photosonics? And get the speeds up to.........dare I ask...........900fps?!:devil:
 
Guys come on. The camera needs to be backwards compatible, and delivery needs to be fast. I have a LOT of clients still shooting SD.

Downrezzing is nice, but it takes time, and that costs money. We need to be able to deliver footage quickly and out of the gate in a lot of different jobs.

Jim, your spending too much time around rich hollywood film makers! :)
A lot of your customers will be using RED as it was designed.. A swiss army knife, designed to serve many needs all at once.

Now that said, I have a confession to make... It's embarrassing: I still don't completely get the whole RGB thing and how it works anyway. I understand REDCode. I have been writing this post on the assumption that RGB is a sort of quicktime format that would allow me to shoot straign to 720 or 1080p. Hope I'm right.

If 2k 96fps could be a software OPTION that could be purchased for those that want it, I think that would be the way to go. I want 720 and 1080... For now... But I HOPE that will change in a year or so

Jay
 
Hey Jay, good points. But the more I face the facts, the more I can't get my head around it. It's a digital cinema camera. It's workflow is very much like film. You shoot raw, and you go to a telecine and you output a color corrected downrez. I mean, even if you're shooting TV with your RED, you should be going to a film-like workflow (and there's a lot of people that shoot film today and output to SD, just like your clients who like material in SD).

My vote ultimately would be for 96fps in 2K, although I certainly wouldn't call 720p and 1080p losers. Remember it's television and what most people will have at home for a long time.

Although 1080p and 720p will be harder to get, it will still be possible to get them, while with 2K 96fps, either you have it or you don't. So that option actually makes the camera MORE versatile, and not less.
 
Well, if you have to choose, 2K@96 sounds fine to me...

But only if :
a) processing times in Redcine for a 1080P downconversion are somewhere near realtime
b) we still have the HD-SDI 1080P outputs.

If not, you have to keep at least the 1080P option. (I don't mind about the 720P)
Don't forget a lot of us will also be doing work for TV, so 1080 will often be our final delivery format. So being able to convert it quickly is an important point.

Just to be sure,the HD-SDI 1080 output would stay even if you removed the 1080/720 recording options, right ?

I think the best option, as suggested by others before, would be to give the choice to people when they buy the camera to have either 1080/720P version or the 2K@96 version.

Or even better : FPGA stands for "Field-programmable gate array", so wouldn't it be possible to just reprogram it in the field with the options you need ? You couldn't have both at the same time, but you could chose... Don't know if this is possible, but that's what I understand from its description...
I thought all the beauty about Red was that all the software parts were easily updatable in the field with just an SD-card ? Or doesn't that apply to the FPGA ?


Jannard said:
We have room for what we advertised... I'm just wondering if all these options are really necessary. We can't ever think of why we would shoot 2K (except for high frame rates), let alone shoot 720P or 1080P (ugh!). If we wouldn't ever shoot that, we are wondering why anyone would. We can certainly give our customers these options. Just seems dumb to me... at least tonight.

Jim
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I can think of a least 4 good reasons to shoot 2K RAW in some situations :
- You just said 2K RAW will only be about 7 MB/s, which can be great if you have to shoot a lot of footage, like on documentary films, and don't have a large budget / crew... That's 4 times less than 4K RAW !!! Dude, that's about 10 hours of 2K RAW footage on a RedDrive ! :w00t:
- Windowed sensor in 2K means a 100mm Lens in 4K "becomes" like a 200mm when cropped to 2K, so it acts like a doubler. Interesting if you need long lenses...
- Faster frame rates, as you said.
- Being able to use 16mm lenses, which also could be interesting if you're trying to stay light, as 16mm zooms aren't as heavy as 35mm zooms...
 
In isolation I would choose 96@2K over 120@720, but if the change also eliminates onboard 60P then I might have to flip my position.
 
1080p120 was originally an option. 1080p is still a growing format. 1080i and 720p are still growing but are slowing down. Who needs them when you got 1080p? And 480p and 480i, well, their declining in popularity I guess.]

I think you can get rid of 720p but I think you should reanable the 1080p120 feature.

I remember when 1K, 1080i and 2K RGB were in the list of recordables...
 
Jannard said:
Not saying we can, but if we could deliver 120fps at 2K, would you change you mind? Just thinking out loud here. Don't write this down in your journals.

Jim
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Yes!!! If that's the case, can the 720/1080.

And maybe it gets to be like a menu at a restaurant...I start worrying about what I'm gonna get when there's 30 dishes on the menu. But I think a great chef can really deliver something special when there's only a few to choose from. If it means BETTER overall performance of the camera and support of the 4K and 2K formats, because you're not stretching the camera or your team too thin, then I say get rid of 720/1080. I doubt I would ever use 1080 in-camera except for the high frame rate (which I would use a lot). I'll be down-converting everything to 1080 in RedCine.
 
taubkin said:
Hey Jay, good points. But the more I face the facts, the more I can't get my head around it. It's a digital cinema camera. It's workflow is very much like film. You shoot raw, and you go to a telecine and you output a color corrected downrez. I mean, even if you're shooting TV with your RED, you should be going to a film-like workflow (and there's a lot of people that shoot film today and output to SD, just like your clients who like material in SD).
Click to expand...

If you are only able to record REDCODE RAW, the maximum recording rate is 30 fps (unless you go for the windowed mode). 30 fps is not enough to make either a 1080i or a 720p signal (or even a 480i signal).
 
Oh, wait a minute... Are we talking about 2K windowed, or 2K scaled? Because I want the full field of view of 35mm in the overcranked shots. Which is why I was going to shoot 1080p RGB @ 60fps. Are you saying you can maybe do 2K scaled at 96 fps? Or am I missing something?
 
The sensor has a limitation of 60 fps full frame. All frame rates above that are windowed.
 
This thread is getting pretty muddy, but here's my thoughts...

I wouldn't shed a tear if 720p was dropped from the spec. The only reason I would shoot 720p on RED is for a higher frame rate. But if 2K can get me close to 100fps, then that's good enough for now. Anything higher than that will probably justify a Phantom rental or even using an overcranked film system.

I do think the camera needs 1080p support or the down-rez from 4K REDCODE to 1080p RGB needs to be at or very near real-time. Too many broadcast applications could benefit from this. OTOH, most broadcasters aren't equipped to handle 1080p anyway, so what's the harm of handing over native 4K REDCODE since they will have to convert (or someone will for them) anyway?
 
I like the idea of being able to shoot scaled 720p - what if you get hired to shoot an un-dream job, something that's kind of boring, but would still benefit from the larger sensor? Say some real estate video's or a grisly industrial safety training video, audition tapes, not really worth dedicating much render time or drive space to, it's just gonna deliver on DVD or Web... If you use windowed 2k you are going to have to find some new wide lenses that you don't have if you are going the full sensor route.

By the way, Would it be possible to record in Apple PRO RES instead or Red- Code RGB ?

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
baro said:
The sensor has a limitation of 60 fps full frame. All frame rates above that are windowed.
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Ok, so in that case, 96fps windowed at 2K is fine. I would like to be able to record at least 60p in some format to CF card, though. I'll be shooting cinema at 4K almost all the time, but I'd like to be able to shoot overcranked in full 35mm frame field of view for some shots. What's the fastest fps that can be achieved in full 35mm frame direct to CF card?
 
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