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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

720P and 1080P... losers

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Jaime Vallés said:
Ok, so in that case, 96fps windowed at 2K is fine. I would like to be able to record at least 60p in some format to CF card, though. I'll be shooting cinema at 4K almost all the time, but I'd like to be able to shoot overcranked in full 35mm frame field of view for some shots. What's the fastest fps that can be achieved in full 35mm frame direct to CF card?
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So far you could save onboard REDCODE RAW 4K @ 30 fps or REDCODE RGB scaled 2K @ 60 fps. Both of these used the full frame. Now maybe the RGB modes will go away.
 
Just to be clear, without 720p and 1080 would three Reds still be able to be in a three camera studio configuration with an HD switcher and recording to a deck?

This is crucial to me.
 
you had me at 2K 60p :-)!!!. at 2K 60p I can supplement my income by shooting outdoor sporting shows (fishing, boating...). If I need >96p there is no sin in getting a film camera to handle that. Easily convert to 1080p or i.

At 2K 60 or 96p do we get 10bit 4:4:4? If so, then I'm firmly in the 2K 96p camp. Besides I already own a 720p camera...JVC HD100. Don't need a second one.
 
Jannard said:
In hindsight, we would have put in a bigger FPGA (not available when we started) but then the price of the camera would be $4K more expensive. Choices... choices.

Jim
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I like choices. Hmmm, do I smell a Virtek in there somewhere? I can only imagine what a Virtex-5 would do to the BOM and resale price!
 
2K @ 96fps windowed RedCode RAW for both my cameras please, and whatever framerate you can squeeze out of the FPGA at 4K for onboard recording options like the CF slot and/or RedDrives :)

Like you said Jim, it's a no-brainer, especially if your goals are towards cinema production like mine are. Cheers!!
 
Jannard said:
FPGA space... imagine what we are giving compared to the competition. Think of the box size. Just think about it for a moment. There is a limit to what we can do. I know that seems an impossible concept since we are offering so much, but trust me... there is a limit.

Jim
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Am I thinking crazy(due to my little knowledge, or lack thereof), but would it be possible for the REd team to come up with some type of FPGA module perhaps-sort of a complementary/supplementary FPGA booster thingy we could attach to the camera(via USB, 1394, etc) and get 120pfs @ 2k or 4k. Then we could purchase this as an option for an extra $4k. Jim could you please ask the team if such a thing would be possible? or just ignore this if my question's too absurd...hahaha
 
If it's just an issue of throughput, I don't see why 120 or at least 115 fps wouldn't be an option.(sorry, I know Jim already said no so I'm beating a dead horse, but...) If Redcode Raw is still 27MB/s @24fps, then @30fps it should be 33.75MB/s or 1.125MB per frame. Jim said that 2k is about 7MB/s @24fps which comes to about .292 MB per frame. So, .292MB x 115 frames = 33.58MB/s (35MB/s @120fps). If 4k 30fps can be recorded onboard, why not 2k @115 or even 120fps? I'm sure there must be something wrong in my math, but that's what I came up with.

Anyway, my vote is for 2k@96fps over 720p options. I'd also like 4k cinemascope @48fps : ) Thanks.
 
I am on board with dumping as long, as has been said earlier, we have the
720 or 1080 taps and can record both audio and video from them. sdi with embeded
audio.

I am hoping to sell producers on the "look" of Red and want to have to option of handing them a tape or being able to live switch.

This of course would eliminate the need for the HD lens adapter.
 
Jannard said:
If we don't get a clear signal... we'll keep it as it is. And I'll do a special build for me. :-)

Jim
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Jim,

If you don't change the current standard I would like to be included in your special build. I would like the 2k @96fps.

RKM
 
jaadgy akanni said:
Am I thinking crazy(due to my little knowledge, or lack thereof), but would it be possible for the REd team to come up with some type of FBGA module perhaps-sort of a complementary FPGA booster thingy we could attach to the camera(via USB, 1394, etc) and get 120pfs @ 2k or 4k. Then we could purchase this as an option for an extra $4k. Jim could you please ask the team if such a thing would be possible? or just ignore this if my question's too absurd...hahaha
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Connecting anything to an FPGA via a serial interface (USB, 1394, etc) is really making very poor use of the massively parallel interface that an FPGA offers. Certainly the post processor side can be serial, but the input side (in order to maintain the high throughput) would be laid out as a parallel path. Single cycle execution, massive parallel architecture & hardware signal processing are all things that FPGAs (or ASICs) do extremely well. Some of the really big FPGAs have costs approaching that of the RED ONE body. Contemplating a core change is not a trivial thing at all.
 
khmuse said:
Connecting anything to an FPGA via a serial interface (USB, 1394, etc) is really making very poor use of the massively parallel interface that an FPGA offers. Certainly the post processor side can be serial, but the input side (in order to maintain the high throughput) would be laid out as a parallel path. Single cycle execution, massive parallel architecture & hardware signal processing are all things that FPGAs (or ASICs) do extremely well. Some of the really big FPGAs have costs approaching that of the RED ONE body. Contemplating a core change is not a trivial thing at all.
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Thanks man, for enlightening me:biggrin: Also, I'm glad to learn that my question has some validity after all.
 
Wow! Posts are happening faster than I can read them, so I just jumped to the end so I could vote for: a camera with RAW and Red code Raw 2 and 4k with as much frame rate speed as you can squeeze out of it. On mine, you can just leave the fluff off.
 
If it's just a question of FPGA size, then maybe you can have both options available (720@120 and 2k@96). Couldn't you just put both options into the FPGA's boot ROM, then boot up in one mode or another? Or maybe flash the FPGA one way or the other?

If the current FPGA cannot handle 2k@120, then there's only a slim chance that future firmware upgrades can do it. But if there's room in the camera, maybe you can consider adding a daughter card upgrade with a larger FPGA?
 
Jay A. Kelley said:
Guys come on. The camera needs to be backwards compatible, and delivery needs to be fast. I have a LOT of clients still shooting SD.

Downrezzing is nice, but it takes time, and that costs money. We need to be able to deliver footage quickly and out of the gate in a lot of different jobs.

Jim, your spending too much time around rich hollywood film makers! :)
A lot of your customers will be using RED as it was designed.. A swiss army knife, designed to serve many needs all at once.

Now that said, I have a confession to make... It's embarrassing: I still don't completely get the whole RGB thing and how it works anyway. I understand REDCode. I have been writing this post on the assumption that RGB is a sort of quicktime format that would allow me to shoot straign to 720 or 1080p. Hope I'm right.

If 2k 96fps could be a software OPTION that could be purchased for those that want it, I think that would be the way to go. I want 720 and 1080... For now... But I HOPE that will change in a year or so

Jay
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I really agree with you, as I've already written.

Jay here is my understanding of Red RGB. It's actually similar to REDCODE RAW in a lot of ways. The difference is that you loose the RAW Bayer Pattern once you scale a raw image down. RAW becomes RGB when you create a smaller image because the pixels can't stay seperated.

Similarly to RC Raw, Red RGB is a new format which won't be compatible with every NLE at the getgo. It will be compatible with FCP 6. RGB still uses wavelet compression and I'm not sure if white balance and curves are baked in or just in metadata.

The advantage of 720p and 1080p as I see them are:

*You get to keep the 35mm field of view and depth of field. So it's like shooting on an f900 with a pro35 adapter and with RED's dynamic range and wavelet compression plus no light loss. (If that was the whole spec of RED I'd still be salivating.)

*Also you have less data to deal with. So post is faster, less of a burden on CPU's and hard drives.

*The disadvantage is less pixels.

2K 96fps has these advantages:
*It runs at 96fps.

The disadvantages are:
*Not a 35mm field of view and depth of field. (Ok this could be an advantage... but how much glass do you want to invest in.)

I think we may be suffering from a resolution fetish on this site. I'll take field of view and depth of field over resolution and framerate for my optional modes. I always have the option to go 4K RAW when I want it.

I will also pay for a larger FPGA whenever its ready to come out.

IBloom
 
120fps at 2K should just mean 240fps or more at 720p, not the elimination of 720p. That's pretty short sighted. Quite a surprising topic.
 
>120fps at 2K should just mean 240fps or more at 720p<

I believe that would only be the case if it were windowed Raw 720p, which would be a very small area of the sensor.
 
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