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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

720P and 1080P... losers

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ibloom said:
You can plan forever, eventually you have to jump in the water. Besides if the camera is only going to be used when you make a movie than it sounds like you should be renting a RED not buying it.

IBloom
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You are right on the money, you do eventually have to jump. But having money up front is oh so important to me -- than I can focus on doing what I want to do with the camera, not what I have to do. That's what happened with my Z1U -- I went into debt and did a bunch of jobs that I despised or mildly tolerated -- I hate doing wedding videos, fyi -- and yes, it tainted the relationship a bit. (I'm a relational guy.)

When I spend $30k or more on something like this, I won't be caught dead using it for videos that the Z1U can easily do. I'd sooner walk off a cliff.

That being said, I am looking to do a LOTTA features in the next several years, as well as be a resource to other local filmmakers in my area. Again, when the time (and the money) is right.

Besides, I already got into debt again recently for a car for my wife. :) Woman takes precedent over camera, a wise man once said. :)
 
Comes down to workflow

Comes down to workflow

Well,

I have read through the 225 posts here and I am quite intrigued by the possibilities and the responses. I think there are a few considerations. ibloom and J.A Kelly have made some seriously great points in favour of keeping 720P and 1080P.

Here is why I like the idea of keeping the HD formats.

1. HD has only recently become the delivery and broadcast standard for broadcast television. There are still many instances where SD is delivered. We are still in an HD/SD world and for these reasons shooting HD and delivering HD and SD still makes some sense (from a time and labour perspective?).

2. I like the fact that with the 1080 and 720 features enabled the RED is effectively both a Varicam and F-900/E950 killer. You can say you are effectively offering the same product to existing clients. (clients are far less likely to be as visionary as most of us are)

3. Editing natively in REDCODE in FCP in either of these resolutions is attractive. Not everyone will be "one lighting" their footage, and if you are doing work for the production departments of major amnets then simpler is better. Many of these calls come with the spec pre-defined like (project needs to be shot on 720P, etc.) And why shouldn't they get a taste of how great this footage and codec is? So scalability is definitely a factor. Then again, broadcasters may never warm to RED.

4. Does eliminating HD resolutions effectively render RED useless in any kind of a live set-up? (not 1080 off the HDSDI outputs?) If I were doing a multicamera live HD event (like 10 or 12 camera's) wouldn't I salivate at the lens options that RED has to offer me?

5. While I agree that RED is best suited as a cinema camera is it wise to ignore the many other channels of distribution and the speed with which we can access them (will web direct need to be shot 2k or 4K) The camera is priced to put the technology in the hands of people who shoot this content?

6. A workflow question? How much time do I save by shooting 720P compared to shooting 2K?

Again, this is really a question of the difference is between 2K in the Pipeline and what 720P or 1080P is in the pipeline. It's hard to answer these questions until the advantages and disadvantages of both are seen in real working workflows. If 2K adds extra steps and time then that needs to be considered because the functionality and modularity of the camera is extended by the flexibilty of formats that ca be recorded.

7. Will cutting HD draw a line in the sand and limit broadcast sales?

With all of this said I can say that I understand that it makes perfect sense to record the highest quality image at all times and then worry about the down converts later. This is a bit of a "camera department" mentality. Having been in the post end of the business for many years there are time when more flexible workflows could have achieve the needs of any specific project.

What I love most about RED is flexibility and modular design. Why shouldn't this extend beyond the camera body to REDCINE and the rest of the workflows?

To me, the first release of the camera should at least cover the widely accepted HD formats of the day. Future releases of the camera and or firmware can drop these formats.

By leaving HD in the camera I think that you are increasing the chances for a VERY wide acceptance of the technology and allowing it into as many hands as possible. RED will set and be the standard, but don't close the door on HD just yet, even though I agree that it makes perfect logical sense to do so.

David
 
Couldn't the little pocket Red have all the 720 and 1080p capabilities? Those are just prosumer formats anyway, so separate them from the big guy and make them easier to tote.
 
35mm FOV is the deciding factor for me...

35mm FOV is the deciding factor for me...

As a longtime lurker and reservation holder, this seemed like a great time to jump into the fray. I also vote for 2k at 96fps with one important caveat. That it be scaled, not windowed. The best part of 720p at 120fps was that it would have the FOV/DOF of 35mm. If 2k at 96fps can only be in s16 frame size, than the extra resolution boost at 2k over 720p is not worth it.

While this is a Digital Cinema camera(and I will be shooting in 4k RedRaw almost all of the time), I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of work will be viewed on TV's and the web. The extra resolution won't matter so much here, but the 35mm FOV/DOF would.

This is a tough call. Once again, for me, it hinges upon 35 vs. s16 FOV.
 
Hendry said:
The best part of 720p at 120fps was that it would have the FOV/DOF of 35mm. If 2k at 96fps can only be in s16 frame size, than the extra resolution boost at 2k over 720p is not worth it.
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Check the specs again. 720p120 can only be done from the 2k croppped sensor.
 
Leaving clients to be responsible to downrez to 1080/720 is a VERY scary idea. Now I have to play additional tech support that I didn't before. I felt comfortable delivering 4k, 2k, 1080, 720 because one of those formats is what they'd ask for, anything else could be additional work, thus additional income.
Now this decision either 1. cuts out the 720/1080 market for me (which is larger than 2k/4k) or 2. requires me to do more work to hand off 720/1080.

I'd love to get as fast as frame rates as possible. Is there any other way to do it without losing 1080? I could live without 720, but 1080 is still a very attractive option for a lot of the industries. What's the fastest 1080 frame rate we could get if we lost 720?

Thanks.

-CJ
 
Anders Holck said:
It actually is. There is a Quicktime codec, and announced support for FCP.

The key here is that 2k is cropped only.

If we ditch 1080p, the only way to get full 35mm format is to shoot 4k. That means you need to debayer and scale to get 1080p.
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Yes but if 1080p Redcode RGB is a 'deliverable format' then so is 2k RAW. And the 2k RAW of the two will be a smaller file.
 
Hendry said:
As a longtime lurker and reservation holder, this seemed like a great time to jump into the fray. I also vote for 2k at 96fps with one important caveat. That it be scaled, not windowed. The best part of 720p at 120fps was that it would have the FOV/DOF of 35mm. If 2k at 96fps can only be in s16 frame size, than the extra resolution boost at 2k over 720p is not worth it.

While this is a Digital Cinema camera(and I will be shooting in 4k RedRaw almost all of the time), I think it is safe to say that the vast majority of work will be viewed on TV's and the web. The extra resolution won't matter so much here, but the 35mm FOV/DOF would.

This is a tough call. Once again, for me, it hinges upon 35 vs. s16 FOV.
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Well put as well as David's insightfull comments above. I think this issue
really draws a line in the sand between The Dcinema crowd and the rest of the media community who are doing everything but making movies.
 
whoops

whoops

Anders Holck said:
Check the specs again. 720p120 can only be done from the 2k croppped sensor.
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Thanks for the correction, Anders. I'm not sure why I thought 720p was scaled from the full sensor. Was it always this way?

Anyway, I guess it makes my vote easier. 2k at 96fps it is.
 
Fast and low

Fast and low

If histroy teaches us anything...Projects for TV delivery will go for higher frame rate and take the hit on resolution.
Features will want to keep quality at 2k or above.

Having played with the early 500fps low res digital slomo cams I observed an interesting effect. Producers and directors though the "quality" of the images were "fantastic" when actually it was a 8 bit noisey mush worse than a single chip video "mincam'
Slow motion capture of an event that reveals detail that is normally lost at 24p/25p fools the brain somewhat that there is more detail in the image than actually exists. It is engauged by seeing detail (albeit low) that it normally is a blurr.

Jim, if you may be able do 96 @2k in the future does that mean you may be able to do 180 @720p in the future?
This would be very popular for TV work.


As a (future) reference, Sony Super motion TV outside broadcast camera will apparently be able to do 1920x1080 @ 90p

NAC/Arri 300fps 3 chip 1920x1080 is next in line but it is more than a little noisy and needs a mains powered base station. Rental rates for both these cameras is very high and portability very low.




Mike Brennan
 
Hendry said:
Thanks for the correction, Anders. I'm not sure why I thought 720p was scaled from the full sensor. Was it always this way?

Anyway, I guess it makes my vote easier. 2k at 96fps it is.
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720 can be both scaled and cropped. 60 fps in scaled and 120 in cropped.
 
I need to be able to give the clients 720p or 1080p RGB footage the day of the shoot for most of the jobs that will pay for the camera. Remember nothing but the highest end commercial and big budget Narritive even deals with 4k footage. Sure 4k is the future, but to deny what is most used today is a big mistake. I don't even care about frame rates in this argument.
 
Also, I know that i could just rent a deck to get 720 and 1080 stuff, but that's a rental expense that i would rather pocket.
 
Interesting thread, to say the least…

What attracted me to the RED One camera system, clear back in Autumn 2005 when it was first proposed, were these key concepts: utility, scalability, affordability, and flexibility. All of those words point to professional breadth, and lets face it, the motion media business is just that – a business. Over the years I’ve broadened my skill sets and genres serviced for two reasons: professional fulfillment and revenue potential. Those same two reasons attracted me to the RED One camera system: professional fulfillment and revenue potential. I was a perfect candidate to adopt a camera like RED One long before there was a RED One – but such a camera never existed. When it came along it was a no-brainer for me to hop aboard the RED train.

Fast-forward to what Jim has proposed in this thread. Firstly, I think everyone needs to remember how remarkable it is for us potential adopters to be heavily involved in the development process. To be asked our opinions to this degree is unprecedented in the motion media industry. Much appreciated Jim.

A huge percentage of RED User members are indie, cine-style oriented, so the opinions expressed on this board generally reflect that demographic and orientation. But is that demographic and are those opinions an accurate reflection of the overall market for RED One? I don’t think so. The days of people working in just a limited range of production genres and styles are rapidly coming to a close – and convergent technology is enabling that transition. Progressive production people of today and tomorrow are/will be involved in multiple genres and styles of production for the same two reasons I mentioned above: professional fulfillment and revenue generation potential.

Let’s talk markets for RED One in terms of numbers. Features are a tiny percentage of the overall number of productions each year. Other cine-style productions are also in the minority. EFP productions far outnumber cine productions in terms of overall production numbers. Bottom line: EFP is by far the largest potential market, in potential sales and rentals, for RED One. Large numbers of EFP productions are now shot with hybrid cine-style equipment and style, but they are never intended for the big screen. Large numbers of the non-union workforce (the overwhelming majority) are cross-training to be able to work in a wide variety of productions and skill sets.

Enter the RED One camera system. IMO RED One is an excellent enabler for the transition I outlined in the paragraph above. I think RED will shoot themselves in the foot if they don’t capitalize on the largest market for their camera system: the EFP production industry. I also think that production workers in the motion media industry that ignore the revenue potential of cross-training to work in the EFP industry will fall short of their professional and fiscal potential.

Bottom line
Jim Jannard and the rest of the RED Team are friends of mine, and they know I am always good for an honest professional opinion. I respect the heck out of those guys for their concepts and hard work – they seriously rock! That said, I agree with what Sharkguy posted in his post #124. I agree with what Anders Holk posted in his post #128. I agree with what iBloom posted in his post #201. Windowed 2k RC RAW @96fps would be excellent indeed – but even better if it was scaled. For me, 720p could go away if it enabled 2k RC RAW @96fps. But for me to easily do a lot of the genres I work in, I think 1080p needs to stay. We’ve confirmed that using an Abakas or RED B4 adaptor that B4 2/3” lenses will cover 2k, but no tests have been done to check the resolution and quality of those images. If RED was to totally eliminate 1080p, and a 2k/B4 adaptor/B4 lens setup turned out to not work well, that would effectively eliminate B4 2/3” lens use on RED One – which would preclude lots of guys from using their 2/3” HD lenses, and also eliminate a lot of the EFP market potential from RED One sales, including most television networks and independent television production companies (packagers/self-syndicators)

2k RC RAW @96fps would be very cool, keeping 1080p, but eliminating 720p if that’s what it takes to get the added 2k frame rate. As Matt Uhry pointed out, losing 720p120 would eliminate some of the “bread & butter” project capability with RED One. From the beginning and for 20 months now RED One has been stated as a D-cinema camera that was also capable of being re-lensed and re-accessorized for extensive EFP work. IMO any move that erodes the scalability, utility, and flexibility of RED One would be a move backwards in terms of marketability of the camera for RED and revenue generating potential of the camera system for adopters.

Again Jim… thanks for keeping everyone in the developmental loop…much appreciated!
 
babubu said:
Hee Haahaaa!!!
What about having Raw port and frame rates Jim?
babu
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if you choose the RAW port, then you are not concern, as you can record what the sensor is able to, that is 60fps @ 4,5K and 120fps @ 2K

antoine.

Edit: it is crazy the number of post and the speed :usd:
 
The sudden, lets dump 1080p and 720p recording this close to delivery feels to me like Red discovered its going to be a bigger hassle to implement it than you first thought and might even delay shipping to try and include it at this point as it may be a hardware issue rather than just software enablement.

Ultimately, things were and are always subject to change.

So, am I close?
 
What about doing a Firmware update so that we can choose one option or the other. So, if you are shooting sports or other high speed stuff, you can firmware update to use 120fps 720p. If you need to do stuff where resolution is more important, then you firmware update to 2k at 96fps. Will that work Jim?
 
Craig Bowman said:
The sudden, lets dump 1080p and 720p recording this close to delivery feels to me like Red discovered its going to be a bigger hassle to implement it than you first thought and might even delay shipping to try and include it at this point as it may be a hardware issue rather than just software enablement.

Ultimately, things were and are always subject to change.

So, am I close?
Click to expand...

Not really because RGB was already dropped from the first firmware version. And that was known a long time ago.
 
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