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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

720P and 1080P... losers

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Gibby said:
Interesting thread, to say the least…

What attracted me to the RED One camera system, clear back in Autumn 2005 when it was first proposed, were these key concepts: utility, scalability, affordability, and flexibility. All of those words point to professional breadth, and lets face it, the motion media business is just that – a business. Over the years I’ve broadened my skill sets and genres serviced for two reasons: professional fulfillment and revenue potential. Those same two reasons attracted me to the RED One camera system: professional fulfillment and revenue potential. I was a perfect candidate to adopt a camera like RED One long before there was a RED One – but such a camera never existed. When it came along it was a no-brainer for me to hop aboard the RED train.

Fast-forward to what Jim has proposed in this thread. Firstly, I think everyone needs to remember how remarkable it is for us potential adopters to be heavily involved in the development process. To be asked our opinions to this degree is unprecedented in the motion media industry. Much appreciated Jim.

A huge percentage of RED User members are indie, cine-style oriented, so the opinions expressed on this board generally reflect that demographic and orientation. But is that demographic and are those opinions an accurate reflection of the overall market for RED One? I don’t think so. The days of people working in just a limited range of production genres and styles are rapidly coming to a close – and convergent technology is enabling that transition. Progressive production people of today and tomorrow are/will be involved in multiple genres and styles of production for the same two reasons I mentioned above: professional fulfillment and revenue generation potential.

Let’s talk markets for RED One in terms of numbers. Features are a tiny percentage of the overall number of productions each year. Other cine-style productions are also in the minority. EFP productions far outnumber cine productions in terms of overall production numbers. Bottom line: EFP is by far the largest potential market, in potential sales and rentals, for RED One. Large numbers of EFP productions are now shot with hybrid cine-style equipment and style, but they are never intended for the big screen. Large numbers of the non-union workforce (the overwhelming majority) are cross-training to be able to work in a wide variety of productions and skill sets.

Enter the RED One camera system. IMO RED One is an excellent enabler for the transition I outlined in the paragraph above. I think RED will shoot themselves in the foot of they don’t capitalize on the largest market for their camera system: the EFP production industry. I also think that production workers in the motion media industry that ignore the revenue potential of cross-training to work in the EFP industry will fall short of their professional and fiscal potential.

Bottom line
Jim Jannard and the rest of the RED Team are friends of mine, and they know I am always good for an honest professional opinion. I respect the heck out of those guys for their concepts and hard work – they seriously rock! That said, I agree with what Sharkguy posted in his post #124. I agree with what Anders Holk posted in his post #128. I agree with what iBloom posted in his post #201. Windowed 2k RC RAW @96fps would be excellent indeed – but even better if it was scaled. For me, 720p could go away if it enabled 2k RC RAW @96fps. But for me to easily do a lot of the genres I work in, I think 1080p needs to stay. We’ve confirmed that using an Abakas or RED B4 adaptor that B4 2/3” lenses will cover 2k, but no tests have been done to check the resolution and quality of those images. If RED was to totally eliminate 1080p, and a 2k/B4 adaptor/B4 lens setup turned out to not work well, that would effectively eliminate B4 2/3” lens use on RED One – which would preclude lots of guys from using their 2/3” HD lenses, and also eliminate a lot of the EFP market potential from RED One sales, including a lot of television networks and independent television production companies (packagers/self-syndicators)

2k RC RAW @96fps would be very cool, keeping 1080p, but eliminating 720p if that’s what it takes to get the added 2k frame rate. As Matt Uhry pointed out, losing 720p120 would eliminate some of the “bread & butter” project capability with RED One. From the beginning and for 20 months now RED One has been stated as a D-cinema camera that was also capable of being re-lensed and re-accessorized for extensive EFP work. IMO any move that erodes the scalability, utility, and flexibility of RED One would be a move backwards in terms of marketability of the camera for RED and revenue generating potential of the camera system for adopters.

Again Jim… thanks for keeping everyone in the developmental loop…much appreciated!
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This is just an excellent post!

David
 
We need to know more facts before making this decision. Are we talking only about frame rate? Or are we saying that if we take 2k@96 that there will be no room for 1080 and 720 scaling at all? Are we talking about frame rates or are we talking about being able to shoot 720 and 1080 scaled?
 
What about doing a Firmware update so that we can choose one option or the other. So, if you are shooting sports or other high speed stuff, you can firmware update to use 120fps 720p. If you need to do stuff where resolution is more important, then you firmware update to 2k at 96fps. Will that work Jim?
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I like the idea of options. Everybody is going to do some thing different with their camera, why can't we have both frame rates as an option? I know I would have use for both of them.
 
Craig Bowman said:
The sudden, lets dump 1080p and 720p recording this close to delivery feels to me like Red discovered its going to be a bigger hassle to implement it than you first thought and might even delay shipping to try and include it at this point as it may be a hardware issue rather than just software enablement.

Ultimately, things were and are always subject to change.

So, am I close?
Click to expand...

I have no real knowledge of how close you might be, but....

I think Mr. Jannard was feeling frisky while carrying what one post said was a very big spoon to stir the pot, a pot that has grown many tentacles on its own.
 
720p 120fps or 2k 96fps

720p 120fps or 2k 96fps

the efp/eng guys make good points for keeping the 720 and 1080 formats but jim did ask us what we want. and as a collective, it appears that most people right now choose resolution over fps/formats even if it isn't the best business decision for red's future market.

personally, i'm just excited to be included in a collective decision like this. unfortunately i don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. my instinct is to go for the 2k. at least that will cut well with 4k. but...

it does seem like a huge sacrifice to give up two hd in-camera native formats just to get some more fps. the modularity of red is about more than just it's physical characteristics. i predict a fair amount of value can be had from spitting out 720p and 1080p as opposed to adding a pc, a few steps and rendering times to final output.

my vote is to keep the red as is.

i guess i did have an opinion after all.
 
Jannard said:
STOP. Engineers have just said that 2K at 96fps for now is all we can talk about as a possible option.

Jim
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I like the idea but I´m wondering how long are the downconvertion render times in Red Cine...The thing is that if it takes one day to downconvert two hours of RedCine 2K 96fps to 1080i/720p for distribution it would be a problem for TV spots where time is money.

On the other hand Jim, I´m wondering how you feel about 60fps@4K to Red Ram (for the future of course)...

thanks
 
Gibby said:
Interesting thread, to say the least…

What attracted me to the RED One camera system, clear back in Autumn 2005 when it was first proposed, were these key concepts: utility, scalability, affordability, and flexibility. All of those words point to professional breadth, and lets face it, the motion media business is just that – a business. Over the years I’ve broadened my skill sets and genres serviced for two reasons: professional fulfillment and revenue potential. Those same two reasons attracted me to the RED One camera system: professional fulfillment and revenue potential. I was a perfect candidate to adopt a camera like RED One long before there was a RED One – but such a camera never existed. When it came along it was a no-brainer for me to hop aboard the RED train.....
Click to expand...

"Professional fulfillment and revenue potential." Gibby you are a great writer, and you do a great job of distilling the essence of your point of view.

And I'm not just saying that because I agree with you this time. :shifty:

IBloom
 
Did the Panasonic HVX200 really need a tape drive? ..Drop the 720 & 1080 in favor of 2k/96
 
Gibby said:
...Windowed 2k RC RAW @96fps would be excellent indeed – but even better if it was scaled. For me, 720p could go away if it enabled 2k RC RAW @96fps. But for me to easily do a lot of the genres I work in, I think 1080p needs to stay.
Click to expand...

I very much agree with Gibby. 1080p scaled for DOF or cropped for speed, needs to stay. I'd rather the developers spend the time pushing the frame rate for 1080p scaled to it's highest potential than spending even a minute at 720p.

1080p has become the new minimum standard, would position Red well for live TV and by recording it in RGB directly, it gives the run and gun crowd the instant gratification they need.

Also, did I remember correctly--the HDMI out is 1080p, correct? I have a sneaking feeling it was 720p--but please tell me it's 1080--we really need to be able to use this on live/switched stuff.

But 2K RC Raw at 96fps would be excellent--and of course it is cropped (It's raw, hello?!!--it has to be cropped) Since I will only do feature work, 720p is not even on my Radar as there is no way it will cut with 4K--but 2K should do just fine.

I'm really hoping the Red Raid is announced soon to put everyone's fears to rest.

plug for RED RAID

In my mind, Red Raid should be a computer in it's own right and connect directly to the Raw port. You should be able to dock your Red Drive onto it to add your high speed footage as stretched out RedCode Raw footage to everything else you've shot. So you could shoot 4K at the highest frame rate possible to the Raid, then when the camera stops, the Raid box would convert the Raw to Redcode Raw and spool it down to the Drive/Ram module and make room for the next shot.

This way, you don't need endless drive storage--you just need enough for 30 seconds? 1 Minute? 2 Minutes? 5 Minutes? It just needs to be fast enough to handle Raw recording then smart enough to convert it to RedCode Raw to intermix with your other footage when the shooting is done.

Once triggered, the recording should go in a loop so if you are waiting for a stunt it is the end point that determines the recording--not the starting point. So, if you have only 30 seconds of cache available, you trigger and even if it is crunching away for 5 minutes, after the amazing stunt you hit stop and the last 30 seconds would be converted and spooled to the Red Drive.

As for naming, I think it could be called Red Raw Cache, or Red Rocket pack.

Back to the thread...

IMHO 720p can take a bullet for 2k/96 but I think 1080p should be spared.
 
laboprod said:
if you choose the RAW port, then you are not concern, as you can record what the sensor is able to, that is 60fps @ 4,5K and 120fps @ 2K

antoine.

Edit: it is crazy the number of post and the speed :usd:
Click to expand...

Thank you lab
babu:glare:
 
Quote: "Did the Panasonic HVX200 really need a tape drive? ..Drop the 720 & 1080 in favor of 2k/96"

Reply: Is the HVX200 everybody's EFP favourite?
 
For the near future my clients will be cutting in 720, and delivering SD masters of spots. So I would love to make that as smooth as possible. But i don't know what the downconvert time in Redcine will be like, and i'm only open to options that are scalled down not sensor crops. As always the faster the camera can go at any given framesize the better.

_mike
 
I vote for 2K @ 96 fps (or 100 fps for PAL compatibility).

But wouldn't it be possible to enable 720p @ 120 fps by a firmware switch? I'm sure the FPGA in your RED design is supposed to be reprogrammable by a firmware update?
 
If it doesn't affect r&d just leave all the choices.
More choices can't do harm. I still prefer resolution over fps, though.

FPS vs resolution issue could be avoided if the architecture of the cam allowed RAM buffering of the RAW data (in 4, 8, 16 GB...BTO options), on internal RAM - rather than depending on the external RAW port.
Maybe an idea for future versions...
 
Jannard said:
We don't have to change anything... it was just a thought. But we don't have the space to do everything. We can leave the spec as it is OR we can get creative at the last minute. I don't really care either way. I'll shoot 4K at 24fps to CF or either 720P @ 120fps or 2K at 96fps to CF. My personal preference is 2K @ 96fps, but I'm just one customer. If the majority wants 720P @ 120fps... that's what we'll do. We can't do both. In hindsight, we would have put in a bigger FPGA (not available when we started) but then the price of the camera would be $4K more expensive. Choices... choices.

Jim
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Casey Green said:
Is the FPGA programmable? What about a software app that allow the end user to choose the cameras supported modes, and then upload the firmware for the FPGA? I'm not sure if this is possible, but worth thowing out there...

This way each user can decide which of the modes they would like available...? 2K@96 or 720@120 but not both available onboard at the same time...
Click to expand...

Others are also now asking what I initially brought up in post #103 (page 11).

When you are referring to "space on the FPGA", is it possible that the user could change the firmware anytime they wanted to enable this feature?
This would allow for the best of both worlds, allow the user to decide per project.

If this is NOT possible, then I still think at least keeping 1080 is important for EFP/ENG use and market share. I bet alot of those 2000 reservations are expecting some degree of HD recording.

For my Filmmaking needs, when I am ready, I will most likely work in 4K and 2K, and I would appreciate the 2K@96fps mode. But on other projects that I work on, I would definitely appreciate the RED's flexibility for recording other formats. Not to mention those that wish to rent their gear out.... I think adding a step to the HD production workflow (downrez) could impact RED rentals in that category.

Perhaps the next Beta unit should be tested in the field on an EFP project?

But I would really like to get an answer about the Firmware idea... Can anyone answer that???
 
i havent read all the 26 pages, but all i can say is this, as long as this camera can only shoot 60fps at 4k means a lot of people are going to still be shooting FILM and demanding it for production. I rather shoot all digital or all film. please get us the highest 2k and 4k frame rate as possible.

for documentary applications framerate definitely outweighs resolution. though its a bonus to have that resolution be as high as possible. anybody see Planet Earth?
 
Final oppinion, before I go get a life:

582_1185909707.jpg
 
as posted by Gibby

2k RC RAW @96fps would be very cool, keeping 1080p, but eliminating 720p if that’s what it takes to get the added 2k frame rate. As Matt Uhry pointed out, losing 720p120 would eliminate some of the “bread & butter” project capability with RED One. From the beginning and for 20 months now RED One has been stated as a D-cinema camera that was also capable of being re-lensed and re-accessorized for extensive EFP work. IMO any move that erodes the scalability, utility, and flexibility of RED One would be a move backwards in terms of marketability of the camera for RED and revenue generating potential of the camera system for adopters.
Click to expand...


Will spoken Gibby

Agreed
 
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