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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

720P and 1080P... losers

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Boy, it’s really hard to keep up with you guys but I had to throw my two cents in. Before I forget, congratulations to Jim and the team on all they’ve accomplished and the response they’re getting…outstanding!

As far as slo-mo is concerned, I would love to shoot at 120fps but I could live with 2K @ 96fps. For much of my work, lifestyles stuff for commercials and sales presentations, that would be great. But there are many other opportunities for using higher frame rates for use on the small screen and not just for commercials. The Miami Dolphins want to see my Red One when it gets in and I’m sure many major league sports teams would like to use the options of high resolution and/or high frame rates for analysis and training purposes. There may also be industrial applications for the many options that Red One could offer. I know there must be some limits even to the creative genius of the Red Team (although they keep pushing them farther and farther away), but please keep in mind that not all of us out here are able to earn our living making movies. Red One’s versatility is one of its major selling points. Gibby, your post is right on, I agree 100%. Thank you for being so eloquent.

Finally, Jim Jannard you are truly inspirational, as is this entire RedUser community.
I’m beginning to get as excited about this business as I was 30 years ago

Champe
 
Wow. I hate when I miss the first hours of these posts...

my $.02 --

I'm not ever planning on using 1080 or 720 with my RED. If I need to deliver it in a lower resolution, I'll use Redcine to convert it from a 4k master. It would be great if ditching the HD rez's would mean higher framerates for 2k, but frankly, I don't think the purpose of the camera (at least from my perspective) is to be an HD/SD cam. Right now, the only time I could see myself not using 4k is when I need a faster framerate. Besides, what's the point of using nice PL-mount glass unless you're going to USE it!?

Thanks to Jim and the team for their honesty about the process, and wilingness to listen to all of us blather on and debate every little detail. You guys rock.
 
Originally Posted by Gibby
Interesting thread, to say the least…

What attracted me to the RED One camera system, clear back in Autumn 2005 when it was first proposed, were these key concepts: utility, scalability, affordability, and flexibility. All of those words point to professional breadth, and lets face it, the motion media business is just that – a business. Over the years I’ve broadened my skill sets and genres serviced for two reasons: professional fulfillment and revenue potential. Those same two reasons attracted me to the RED One camera system: professional fulfillment and revenue potential. I was a perfect candidate to adopt a camera like RED One long before there was a RED One – but such a camera never existed. When it came along it was a no-brainer for me to hop aboard the RED train.

Fast-forward to what Jim has proposed in this thread. Firstly, I think everyone needs to remember how remarkable it is for us potential adopters to be heavily involved in the development process. To be asked our opinions to this degree is unprecedented in the motion media industry. Much appreciated Jim.

A huge percentage of RED User members are indie, cine-style oriented, so the opinions expressed on this board generally reflect that demographic and orientation. But is that demographic and are those opinions an accurate reflection of the overall market for RED One? I don’t think so. The days of people working in just a limited range of production genres and styles are rapidly coming to a close – and convergent technology is enabling that transition. Progressive production people of today and tomorrow are/will be involved in multiple genres and styles of production for the same two reasons I mentioned above: professional fulfillment and revenue generation potential.

Let’s talk markets for RED One in terms of numbers. Features are a tiny percentage of the overall number of productions each year. Other cine-style productions are also in the minority. EFP productions far outnumber cine productions in terms of overall production numbers. Bottom line: EFP is by far the largest potential market, in potential sales and rentals, for RED One. Large numbers of EFP productions are now shot with hybrid cine-style equipment and style, but they are never intended for the big screen. Large numbers of the non-union workforce (the overwhelming majority) are cross-training to be able to work in a wide variety of productions and skill sets.

Enter the RED One camera system. IMO RED One is an excellent enabler for the transition I outlined in the paragraph above. I think RED will shoot themselves in the foot of they don’t capitalize on the largest market for their camera system: the EFP production industry. I also think that production workers in the motion media industry that ignore the revenue potential of cross-training to work in the EFP industry will fall short of their professional and fiscal potential.

Bottom line
Jim Jannard and the rest of the RED Team are friends of mine, and they know I am always good for an honest professional opinion. I respect the heck out of those guys for their concepts and hard work – they seriously rock! That said, I agree with what Sharkguy posted in his post #124. I agree with what Anders Holk posted in his post #128. I agree with what iBloom posted in his post #201. Windowed 2k RC RAW @96fps would be excellent indeed – but even better if it was scaled. For me, 720p could go away if it enabled 2k RC RAW @96fps. But for me to easily do a lot of the genres I work in, I think 1080p needs to stay. We’ve confirmed that using an Abakas or RED B4 adaptor that B4 2/3” lenses will cover 2k, but no tests have been done to check the resolution and quality of those images. If RED was to totally eliminate 1080p, and a 2k/B4 adaptor/B4 lens setup turned out to not work well, that would effectively eliminate B4 2/3” lens use on RED One – which would preclude lots of guys from using their 2/3” HD lenses, and also eliminate a lot of the EFP market potential from RED One sales, including a lot of television networks and independent television production companies (packagers/self-syndicators)

2k RC RAW @96fps would be very cool, keeping 1080p, but eliminating 720p if that’s what it takes to get the added 2k frame rate. As Matt Uhry pointed out, losing 720p120 would eliminate some of the “bread & butter” project capability with RED One. From the beginning and for 20 months now RED One has been stated as a D-cinema camera that was also capable of being re-lensed and re-accessorized for extensive EFP work. IMO any move that erodes the scalability, utility, and flexibility of RED One would be a move backwards in terms of marketability of the camera for RED and revenue generating potential of the camera system for adopters.

Again Jim… thanks for keeping everyone in the developmental loop…much appreciated!

battistella said:
This is just an excellent post!

David
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I Agree. Much respect to Gibby!
 
2K at 96fps for me as well. I'd rather film that out and have to interpolate every fifth frame from 2k source pixels (rock and roll frames or other tricks that high-rez let's you do NICE) rather than have true 120fps with only 720p source material.
120fps does get you a decent bit slower, but the next "octave" of slow mo for me only kicks in above 150fps-172fps, which will be specialty cameras for a good bit, it seems.
 
How come everybody's voting on 2k windowed when we haven't even seen one frame of windowed footage yet? We might all be surprised at what the quality is. Sure 2k is closer to 4k than 1080 but is a 2k windowed image closer than a 1080 scaled? I would rather up-res 1080p scaled than a 2k windowed image whether it's raw or not. Is everybody thinking straight when they post their vote?
 
To be completely honest, at this point in time, I can't see myself shooting anything with RED that's not 4K. I want to use 35mm glass, I want 35mm DOF, and I want to get the most resolution and best picture out of the camera possible. Even if the deliverable is HD or even DVD, I want my masters to be pristine - and the oversampled image will look far superior to something shot windowed to begin with. When I go out shooting with my 10MP dSLR, I never use the option to shoot at 3MP size just so I can save memory card real estate. No professional would. This is not a step up from an HVX, it's a professional tool aimed at professional users. I can understand people's interest in a 2K option for backwards-compatibility with other lenses, but I doubt I will ever use that option. I'm just one voice and I know this, but my interest with the camera is 4K, REDCODE RAW. I'll pick and choose my deliverable flavors in post.

You can ditch 720, 1080, and even 2K for all I care - if any of that means achieving higher framerates in 4K onboard, that's where I would put my money.
 
Perfectly Articulated

Perfectly Articulated

Gibby said:
Bottom line
Jim Jannard and the rest of the RED Team are friends of mine, and they know I am always good for an honest professional opinion. I respect the heck out of those guys for their concepts and hard work – they seriously rock! That said, I agree with what Sharkguy posted in his post #124. I agree with what Anders Holk posted in his post #128. I agree with what iBloom posted in his post #201. Windowed 2k RC RAW @96fps would be excellent indeed – but even better if it was scaled. For me, 720p could go away if it enabled 2k RC RAW @96fps. But for me to easily do a lot of the genres I work in, I think 1080p needs to stay. We’ve confirmed that using an Abakas or RED B4 adaptor that B4 2/3” lenses will cover 2k, but no tests have been done to check the resolution and quality of those images. If RED was to totally eliminate 1080p, and a 2k/B4 adaptor/B4 lens setup turned out to not work well, that would effectively eliminate B4 2/3” lens use on RED One – which would preclude lots of guys from using their 2/3” HD lenses, and also eliminate a lot of the EFP market potential from RED One sales, including most television networks and independent television production companies (packagers/self-syndicators)

2k RC RAW @96fps would be very cool, keeping 1080p, but eliminating 720p if that’s what it takes to get the added 2k frame rate. As Matt Uhry pointed out, losing 720p120 would eliminate some of the “bread & butter” project capability with RED One. From the beginning and for 20 months now RED One has been stated as a D-cinema camera that was also capable of being re-lensed and re-accessorized for extensive EFP work. IMO any move that erodes the scalability, utility, and flexibility of RED One would be a move backwards in terms of marketability of the camera for RED and revenue generating potential of the camera system for adopters.

Again Jim… thanks for keeping everyone in the developmental loop…much appreciated!
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Thanks Gibby. I wont quote your complete post. You have articulated everything perfectly. I'd like add my name to agree with everything you have said!
 
I voted for 96@2k but I favor keeping all formats available. Even though frame-rate is the issue here, SD is still around and trust me it will be around for a couple more years. Down conversion is nice and all, but if you throw away SD and HD formats you're totally throwing out this "modularity" term. I believe keeping all formats will offer a broader range for our clients. Some clients will not have the processing power for 2k, so why limit the Red One owner because a majority believes these formats are dead or dying?

The fact is they are still around and being used. I can't tell my clients that I can only shoot these certain formats, this takes me off the top of the stage. If 720p@120 is removed at least keep 1080p but @ 120fps
 
SF Geek said:
How come everybody's voting on 2k windowed when we haven't even seen one frame of windowed footage yet? We might all be surprised at what the quality is. Sure 2k is closer to 4k than 1080 but is a 2k windowed image closer than a 1080 scaled? I would rather up-res 1080p scaled than a 2k windowed image whether it's raw or not. Is everybody thinking straight when they post their vote?
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well yes I think I was thinking straight. the window is to get more frame rate. If you don't need high frame rate stick to full sensor and scaled version for sure.

I aggree that 1080p REDCODE RGB should stay, best would be in both scaled and windowed. Yes modularity is also a achievement as well as 35mm sized sensor, RAW and REDCODE

antoine
 
2K @ 96fps sounds great to me. uprezzing from 720p to whatever would be a shame..
as a few people already mentioned here, this thing does 2K, so why would anybody want to go below that? one can downconvert to almost any format if needed.
120fps would be cool, but with todays slomo software you can easily go beyond that.. we're speaking 2K source footage for the motion analyzer.

so.. 2K @ 96fps please
 
Just to clarify (in case anyone is confused), you can get 2K, 1080, or 720 from your 4K image in post. Eliminating 720 or 1080 from the camera doesn't mean you can't deliver a 720 or 1080 project. Yes, it will take additional conversion time in post, but in return you have the added benefits of a 4K master as well as a superior, oversampled final image - advantages which far outweigh the alternative in my opinion.

Shooting 2K (windowed - which is the only place 96fps is coming into play) means NO 35mm DOF. This is different from scaled 2K, which is RGB only. Scaled 2K means drastically larger file sizes and the loss of your RAW flexibility and workflow. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's either 96fps with 16mm coverage, or 35mm DOF and FOV but a converted, larger, RGB image (and no higher speed framerates).

If we can get 2K scaled at 96fps that would change things greatly, but if that's possible then I don't see why shooting 4K at higher framerates wouldn't be possible. And if that's possible, then again, I wouldn't be wasting time shooting in 2K.

720 and 1080 formats have been RGB from the beginning, which means that they too will be larger in size (less efficient) and oversampled in-camera, so you have little to no room for cropping and blowups will look disastrous next to a 4K image.

Even if the camera could shoot 1,000 fps at SD resolutions, it would be useless to me as it won't cut with the rest of my footage. If storage capacity were a major issue (like it is with P2), I might have to rethink my options. But given the fact that we will be able to shoot over 2 hours of 4K to an onboard drive right out of the box leaves me shrugging my shoulders as to why I'd shoot anything else. All of the other formats/options are a compromise, and you're getting next to nothing in return.
 
SF Geek said:
How come everybody's voting on 2k windowed when we haven't even seen one frame of windowed footage yet? We might all be surprised at what the quality is. Sure 2k is closer to 4k than 1080 but is a 2k windowed image closer than a 1080 scaled? I would rather up-res 1080p scaled than a 2k windowed image whether it's raw or not. Is everybody thinking straight when they post their vote?
Click to expand...

The vote is between windowed 2k at 96fps vs 720p at 120fps, and according to the format option chart on Red.com, 720p @ 120fps is scaled from the 2k windowed sensor anyhow !

As for 1080, what I'm understanding is that many are saying we can live without 720p (wether from 2k or 4k) but 1080p is important.

Cheers,
Damien
 
Häakon said:
Just to clarify (in case anyone is confused), you can get 2K, 1080, or 720 from your 4K image in post. Eliminating 720 or 1080 from the camera doesn't mean you can't deliver a 720 or 1080 project. Yes, it will take additional conversion time in post, but in return you have the added benefits of a 4K master as well as a superior, oversampled final image - advantages which far outweigh the alternative in my opinion.
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Yes but the point is if you don't need the 4K master but are rushing in time, and don't want to post process your image in REDCINE...just need a 1080 RGB master straight out of the camera...

But sure, personnaly I am with you on this one Häakon

antoine.
 
Right on Gibby! Thanks for putting it out there, sometimes it's Meal (720P) or Reel (4kRAW).

Jim. Please keep a full sensor mode that drops right on the timeline of a modest FCP system and can be output as SD quickly and painlessly and with minimal rendering and storage needs. Any chance we can record 720P and 1080P as Apple ProRes 422 instead of Redcode RGB to avoid conversions ?

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com
 
I don't consider 2k windowed to be a compromise for situation when I want the FOV and DOF that a S16 frame size produces. Between the S35 and S16 formats it covers everything that I need. Post processing to the final delivery format can have many options, but full and windowed sensor are all that I need for in camera modes.
 
Häakon said:
Just to clarify (in case anyone is confused), you can get 2K, 1080, or 720 from your 4K image in post. Eliminating 720 or 1080 from the camera doesn't mean you can't deliver a 720 or 1080 project. Yes, it will take additional conversion time in post, but in return you have the added benefits of a 4K master as well as a superior, oversampled final image - advantages which far outweigh the alternative in my opinion.

Shooting 2K (windowed - which is the only place 96fps is coming into play) means NO 35mm DOF. This is different from scaled 2K, which is RGB only. Scaled 2K means drastically larger file sizes and the loss of your RAW flexibility and workflow. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's either 96fps with 16mm coverage, or 35mm DOF and FOV but a converted, larger, RGB image (and no higher speed framerates).

If we can get 2K scaled at 96fps that would change things greatly, but if that's possible then I don't see why shooting 4K at higher framerates wouldn't be possible. And if that's possible, then again, I wouldn't be wasting time shooting in 2K.

...
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I believe scaled 2k has been scratched a long time ago. The only options besides 4k, if you want to use the whole sensor, is 1080p or 720p.

As for 35mm DOF, I love, but hell I don't want it all the time. I plan on doing a lot of documentary and higher DOF is important, so I sure hope windowed 2k lives up to my expectations.

Cheers,
Damien
 
I also vote for 96fps (100fps) @ 2k , don´t need 1080 or 720p capabilities if Redcine is able to downconvert in acceptable time.

regards
Manuel
 
As far as overcranking is concerned I could go either way. I just want to make sure that I can shoot 720 or 1080 RGB scaled straight away so that I don't have to do the conversion from 4k, because as much as everyone glosses over the Redcine coversion time and talks about how many options we have in post, we still don't know how long that takes. As long as we can record up to 60 fps in 1080 or 720 RGB scaled in camera, I'm satisfied. If adding 2k 96fps takes away any scaled RGB recording in-camera, then i won't be happy.
 
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