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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

#4K4ALL

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It does look to be a Canon mouth judging by the image. If it were a M4/3 mouth, I think the sensor plane mark would be closer to the mouth....
 
Very exciting. Scarlet dragon isn't going anywhere so it's going to have to be differentiated. I'm guessing it's a 4k pro res only version of the weapon body and that it's not going to be as cheap as we'd all like it to be.
 
To answer some questions with my thoughts, though still speculative:

- The design does appear to be what I call DSMC 2.0 (though there's no official name yet for the Weapon body form factor).
- I don't think this camera will have the "Weapon" name on it, though I do think accessories that work with Weapon will work here.
- The material itself appears to be an aluminum or plastic body, which makes me think that it will be in a similar weight class as Weapon, which is good.
- Having a fixed mount, appears to be a DSMC Canon EF Mount in the picture, does indeed save money as it's less material and assembly time. Which makes me wonder if RED will offer EF and PL separately similar to what others do.
- Now that the Standard OLPF has been revealed, I bet there's a good chance that this will indeed have a fixed internal OLPF, but who knows. That could also equate to savings actually.
- RED normally places the sensor designation below the "RED" logo on the SSD Side Module, however Jarred was sneaky and used some foreground to block that out. Which makes one's mind wander a bit.
- RED recently announced both 120GB and 240GB MINI-MAGs that are lower cost options compared to the faster and larger capacity 512GB and 1TB MINI-MAGs. I think this would be using MINI-MAGs still.
- #4K4ALL means to me that this will likely be a more affordable option for an entry level RED camera with a focus on the newer body form factor, which I think will be around for a while.
- Too early to tell if you can "upgrade to" this from Scarlet or Epic Dragon bodies. Heck, they might surprise us and provide a path for Mysterium-X shooters even.
- Too early to tell if there is an upgrade path to the "future" from whatever this little beast is.
- RED recently has built relationships with both AbelCine and Samys. Which makes one wonder if this will be something that competes with other manufacturers entry level cameras. I wonder if we'll see RED gear at B&H one day?
 
An interesting development but certainly a dilemma for deciding whether to go from the Scarlet Dragon somewhat "sideways" to get on the new Weapon form factor, or suck it up and stay on the "higher" (albeit , probably more expensive) path of the Weapons that have been shown. Time will tell and price will be a factor, as will features.

Good analysis, Phil. Thanks.
 
Perhaps it'll accept Cfast 2.0 cards.

Or maybe this is Red's 1000fps 4K camera.

Can't wait :D
 
If indeed there is a new model(s), the KIT price needs to be around $10K. The feature set will probably be much more fixed than previous models which will be understandable given price. Media and accessories shouldn't overwhelm the cost of the camera, that would be a significant distraction to any new customers contemplating buying into the RED ecosystem. and the camera needs to ship in mass before NAB 2016. The current upgrade process/timeline along with the original pre MX/Dragon/Weapon camera anouncement in the not so distant past is still a sore spot for many.

So hopefully, the tech in the vault that never made it to market can be re-purposed and re-gadgeted. Now would a ideal time to smartly poach the competitors for new customers before the buy-in starts.

And lastly, it needs not to compete in price and performance with existing products. People are too easily confused and misinformed. The Scarlet, a fine and capable product, didn't get the right amount of shine because of being overshadowed by its brethren. No sensor upgrades, no modifications down the road, no tethering of any sort. Want fine china--spend upstream. Just a good solid 4K acquisition device (kit) at a phenomenal price would be a slam dunk.
 
Phil Holland said:
To answer some questions with my thoughts, though still speculative:

- The design does appear to be what I call DSMC 2.0 (though there's no official name yet for the Weapon body form factor).
- I don't think this camera will have the "Weapon" name on it, though I do think accessories that work with Weapon will work here.
- The material itself appears to be an aluminum or plastic body, which makes me think that it will be in a similar weight class as Weapon, which is good.
- Having a fixed mount, appears to be a DSMC Canon EF Mount in the picture, does indeed save money as it's less material and assembly time. Which makes me wonder if RED will offer EF and PL separately similar to what others do.
- Now that the Standard OLPF has been revealed, I bet there's a good chance that this will indeed have a fixed internal OLPF, but who knows. That could also equate to savings actually.
- RED normally places the sensor designation below the "RED" logo on the SSD Side Module, however Jarred was sneaky and used some foreground to block that out. Which makes one's mind wander a bit.
- RED recently announced both 120GB and 240GB MINI-MAGs that are lower cost options compared to the faster and larger capacity 512GB and 1TB MINI-MAGs. I think this would be using MINI-MAGs still.
- #4K4ALL means to me that this will likely be a more affordable option for an entry level RED camera with a focus on the newer body form factor, which I think will be around for a while.
- Too early to tell if you can "upgrade to" this from Scarlet or Epic Dragon bodies. Heck, they might surprise us and provide a path for Mysterium-X shooters even.
- Too early to tell if there is an upgrade path to the "future" from whatever this little beast is.
- RED recently has built relationships with both AbelCine and Samys. Which makes one wonder if this will be something that competes with other manufacturers entry level cameras. I wonder if we'll see RED gear at B&H one day?
Click to expand...

My first guess is MX sensor, low cost camera. I bet RED still have the production line for MX sensors still intact and they must have quite a big load of those sensors left over now. It´s not a bad sensor in any way, still alot better than most competitors, if you add the fact that RED got further in their OLPF development and most likely can apply their new findings also to this camera even if it would be an mx. Also it could be Dragon sensors that did not get good enough quality. I have no idea what ratio RED has for their sensors but simply put the higher resolution you got in a sensor the bigger the chance is that you got to many bad photo sites in the array to pass quality control. If the bad pixels are along the sides / edges of the sensor it would still be good enough to pull out a center crop 4k picture from it.

I think it ´s odd that they do a fixed EF mount. To me it would be a smarter / more low cost to just do it as epic. and only have electronics for epic mounts. Then people can use dumb mounts which seams like an option that would be more adjustable to price. But then again if all cameras have the same mount it´s easer to program for it and more reason to put effort into controlling EF lenses.
 
All i can say is that if this camera is in the sub 5,000 dollar range my red one mx is going on the market immediately! I'm hoping they announce at IBC
 
I reeeeeeeeeaaaaallly hope this bad boy is the camera where they figure out how to make REDRAW sip the power juices. My travel pack has more weight, pound for pound, in batteries than it does in lenses + camera body. I know it's a pipe dream but I hope it has the option of internal NDs as well.

If they can do a full kit price in a range that beats out the C300 (say, $12K-15K) it'll sell well. If they can get the kit price below $10K it'll sell a ton.

For me, if it's got the weight savings of Weapon, is less power hungry and under $20K-ish to get it equipped, one (or two) of them will probably join my lineup of Red cams.
 
"4K4ALL" doesn't mean body that costs over 10k$. It must be sub 5k$ body. Maybe around 3k$ if they really want to compete with Blackmagic and others.
 
Been away from Red since selling my Scarlet and getting an FS7 instead of upgrading to Epic. Financially made a ton of sense to do and the Sony paid for itself in 2 months as opposed to the eternity it took for the Red to pay for itself, but I absolutely 100% miss Red images and redcode footage so much. If there was a cost effective way of having a S35mm Red camera shooting redcode raw that was capable of the same framerates or higher as my FS7 I'd be back in a heartbeat.
 
It maybe better to bookend expectations between $10-$15k for a 35mm sensor. The Scarlet MX fits that category currently. So the question will remain. Will RED offer more camera for the the same amount or less camera for a lower price?
 
$15,000 'ready to shoot' is just about do-able but that would have to include everything you need to get going except media.


The game outside Red has moved on a lot. 4k 60fps is a bare minimum these days. Getting 240fps with the FS7/Odyssey 7Q in 2k/hd with Super 35mm FOV is something to have as a benchmark too.
 
I've been looking at RED for a long time but they still don't have a camera that can replace my Canon 1Dc. Maybe this will get close?

It's a pretty complex set of features surrounding but not limited to:

  • Form factor
  • instant readiness and no management (I'm looking at you, black shading)
  • power options
  • cheap recording media
  • stealth factor
  • over all IQ in available light
  • 4k video, while still having 18MP raw stills with best in class AF
  • ergonomic features—like a body that can actually be hand held

I'm fine with 4k 25fps, but need the 6k FF for stills. It can be 6 fps for all I care, though my 1Dc does 12fps raw...
 
AndreeMarkefors said:
I've been looking at RED for a long time but they still don't have a camera that can replace my Canon 1Dc. Maybe this will get close?

It's a pretty complex set of features surrounding but not limited to:
  • Form factor
  • instant readiness and no management (I'm looking at you, black shading)
  • power options
  • cheap recording media
  • stealth factor
  • over all IQ in available light
  • 4k video, while still having 18MP raw stills with best in class AF
  • ergonomic features—like a body that can actually be hand held
I'm fine with 4k 25fps, but need the 6k FF for stills. It can be 6 fps for all I care, though my 1Dc does 12fps raw...
Click to expand...

As someone who owned a 1DC I don't even think they're in the same league. The 1DC is a brilliant camera, at five or six thousand dollars. Looking back I wish I had never bought the 1DC and just gotten a 1DX to shoot stills on. Honestly now, the Dragon meets my needs for both in most respects. Obviously it's heavier but give and take for having all the tools in one tool box save for a great auto-focus system. But the video quality from the 1DC just always left me wondering why I even bothered.

Hopefully this meets what i'm guessing is a price point for you? Because they already have 6K stills in the Dragons.
 
Jeffrey Loewe said:
As someone who owned a 1DC I don't even think they're in the same league… But the video quality from the 1DC just always left me wondering why I even bothered.
Click to expand...

I think it's fair to say that they are built for different things and approach photo/film in different ways. I don't have any trouble getting pleasing images out of the camera. Perhaps I have lower standards?

My main point is that "affordable 4k" is everywhere. Now, I don't think RED wants to compete in the $3k 8bit 420 space, so it will be more substantial than that. But I'm still waiting for them to deliver on their DSMC concept in a more usable way. I do at least as much stills as moving images.

For instance: a camera doesn't "boot". You flick a switch and its on. You leave it there. For hours. It sleeps and when you touch the shutter it wakes up—in half a second—with roughly the same about of power left that you had when it slept 90 minutes ago.
 
AndreeMarkefors said:
I think it's fair to say that they are built for different things and approach photo/film in different ways. I don't have any trouble getting pleasing images out of the camera. Perhaps I have lower standards?

My main point is that "affordable 4k" is everywhere. Now, I don't think RED wants to compete in the $3k 8bit 420 space, so it will be more substantial than that. But I'm still waiting for them to deliver on their DSMC concept in a more usable way. I do at least as much stills as moving images.

For instance: a camera doesn't "boot". You flick a switch and its on. You leave it there. For hours. It sleeps and when you touch the shutter it wakes up—in half a second—with roughly the same about of power left that you had when it slept 90 minutes ago.
Click to expand...

Absolutely, I fully agree. I'd love this as an option as well. And I should've put that in my original post as I wasn't trying to challenge you. By different league I was saying they're built to have different strengths.

I'm just not sure they're in business to really create a RED DSLR.

In terms of quality, it got decent images. It just didn't have the DR I was looking for. And considering how I shoot a lot of my shots the rolling shutter just made a ton of footage entirely un-usable. Like you said we all have different ways of approaching our jobs. I'm always watching to see what 4K options are out there on the DSLR market.
 
Jeffrey Loewe said:
…It just didn't have the DR I was looking for. And considering how I shoot a lot of my shots the rolling shutter just made a ton of footage entirely un-usable.
Click to expand...

Totally fair. Needs and styles are different.

I've followed RED pretty much since the beginning. The love/miffed relationship comes from the fact that I think RED has the potential to build a really great universal camera… but they often tend to steer in another direction! =)

A Canon (or insert other brand here) DSLR is the ultimate convenience machine. I'd be willing to trade a few things for better performance, but I can't leave the basic concept of a "photographer's camera"—i.e. I'm not looking for a machine that needs pampering, but something streamlined with greater endurance.

If Canon launches a 1Dx mkII with 15 stops and internal 4k to Canon Log2 I'll be all set. But at the same time I want RED to surprise me. At this point it would be satisfying to be a happy RED owner. With emphasis on happy…
 
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