4K ProRes is Coming

[David Battistella]

I'd like to point out, that camera owners and users are NOT the clients. The clients are the ones who decide what they NEED and they are the ones who pay- the producers. So, it's time to drop the "I'll tell you what you need" attitude and do whatever those clients ask for, even if you feel that they are wrong. Because clients are NEVER wrong by definition

Actually,

i think a 6k Prores file is better. No scaling needed, less hardware horsepower. If the Prores file pumps out whatever the camera is set to, no problem with scaling. If you window to 3k the Prores windows, etc. if you anamorphic the Prores is anamorphic , if you WS, the Prores WS, etc. matching the r3d.

its better to have the 6k for reframing, downscaling, stabilization, fx, keying, etc.

besides, the Prores will be 4444HQ and if the CLIENTS don't want Raw why shove it down their throats.

if weapon, as some suggest, is here to satisfy the features, rental, TV, MOW markets, then why not just give them a RED branded 6k Prores camera, because what I am reading here is that this is exactly what the industry and clients want.

But then maybe the argument will go back to skintones, or low light noise, or "we don't like the company and their fanboys" or reds break down and are unreliable, or they need blackshading, blah blah blah.

If the target is (and I am not even sure it is) for RED to get more feature and MOW production credits with weapon, then it might as well be 6k Prores. Why mess with this 2k and 4k proxy stuff?

With LUTs and Prores 6k they might get a step back into that world (again, if it is desired) and they will be ahead of the game.

I'm all about RAW, but Jake is right, I'm just a little owner operator filmmaker making 4k on my desktop, while the real production is pumping out tens of millions of dollars in production on 2k dcp because "Prores is faster" and that is "what the client wants".

One thing i know is that if they don't like RED and the love ARRI, then they will find any excuse to not like RED even if RED provides a camera with 6k Prores and LUTS and all the trimmings in a small form factor with all the latest tech.

We are headed towards 8K vista vision. It's a good strategy as it appears the 3d trend is dying and we can look to the digital version of 65mm as the new draw for Hollywood as cinemas become equiped with 4k digital projection and larger screens.

Maybe one strategy is that RED should only RENT the 8k weapon and not make it available for sale to the public.
Just RENT it out to the big budget production in China, London, NYC and Hollywood and India.

And maybe develop the new glass for it as well.

This way they can make the Weapon 8k special (in a Panavision kind of way) And offer 8k just to the top tier of production, where it is best suited and probably belongs.

It seems like a natural evolution.

anyhow, there is a lot in this post, but things could still go in so many directions right now. It's a time to be fluid.

 

[jake blackstone]

Maybe one strategy is that RED should only RENT the 8k weapon and not make it available for sale to the public.
Just RENT it out to the big budget production in China, London, NYC and Hollywood and India.
And maybe develop the new glass for it as well.
This way they can make the Weapon 8k special (in a Panavision kind of way) And offer 8k just to the top tier of production, where it is best suited and probably belongs.

I think you mean Alexa 65 rental only model at $10k a day
Yesterday I saw 4K prores playback of Alexa 65 at Codex booth on 4k 65" monitor and it just about floored me. Images were simply stunning and I don't use this term lightly. Images had this familiar effortless feel to anyone, that used medium format camera. No sharpening, no noise, just simple perfection.Those images were acquired RAW, but they were showing Prores 4K.

 

[Scott Crawley]

as much hype as 4k is... and I'm in the loin's den saying this... Broadcast is still 720.

But people are choosing to watch cell phone cat videos on YouTube at 1080.

What does it all mean?

I think it means that broadcast is on it's last leg, but what do I know? I dropped broadcast television over ten years ago. I recently moved from an Apple TV 1 (720) to a newer 1080 version and can't understand how I watched 720 for so long. The shit is ugly by comparison.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Again, I think 4k proress from 8k sensor will be for a lot of reasons and situations superior to 8k raw.. the reason is what we call raw is also compressed. Think of it, when underexposed The video tap of epic recorded in proress is far less noisy than the same r3d downscaled to hd... why? Because the compression beats before downsample on the r3d. Same will apply when shotibg 8k and recornding downsampled 4k saved in proress.

Still fir other situations 8k r3ds will be a better option but far from allways. Red knows thus and I think rhats why they now put in this this proress feature.

 

[jake blackstone]

Again, I think 4k proress from 8k sensor will be for a lot of reasons and situations superior to 8k raw.. the reason is what we call raw is also compressed. Think of it, when underexposed The video tap of epic recorded in proress is far less noisy than the same r3d downscaled to hd... why? Because the compression beats before downsample on the r3d. Same will apply when shotibg 8k and recornding downsampled 4k saved in proress.

Still fir other situations 8k r3ds will be a better option but far from allways. Red knows thus and I think rhats why they now put in this this proress feature.

Prores is a compressed codec too, so I don't understand the point. Larger size images actually benefit compression better, than the smaller size. In other words, 8k compressed vs 4k compressed using the same level of compression will result in higher quality, even after the down conversion to 4k, as long the compression had been applied to the highest resolution. This fact had been established many years ago by Rank Cintel.

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

From day one of the anouncements i really didn't understood why red would take the risk and also let us make the risk with new hardware to once again not having 4K prores. It is is definatelly a very important factor for me to do the purchase or upgrade, just because some of the post issues that people still claim red for. I have used raw since day one and see no reason to change that, but it seems the world out there thinks different than me. so prores 4K at normal framerates with be a good start. If it' to hard to have it both then let us choose between raw or prores for the 4K. and for the highspeed framerates maby you can have files recorded in higher framerates and then copied over or transcoded shortly after the take to 4k prores.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I'd like to point out, that camera owners and users are NOT the clients. The clients are the ones who decide what they NEED and they are the ones who pay- the producers. So, it's time to drop the "I'll tell you what you need" attitude and do whatever those clients ask for, even if you feel that they are wrong. Because clients are NEVER wrong by definition

You are mostly right; some of the time. Except when you're not. Every persons situation is different and sometimes clients even value your advice and input. Go figure.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Prores is a compressed codec too, so I don't understand the point.

The point is its very different to compress after downsample then before.

After= good
before = far less good.

Simply the more the inage is downsampled the less noise there is to compress.

that is the reason why people at times get cleaner images out of their pix recorderd then out of their r3d's when comparing them in hd.

hope that example kind of explain what im hinting at.

 

[Daniel Reed]

I figured if Weapon CF could do 120fps at 2k, it most likely could handle 4K at 60fps. (but what the hell do I know about that haha)

I suspect it may be more like 4K @ 30/29.976 fps for ProRes

 

[Mark Pugh]

Might be a higher frame rate if R3Ds aren't being recorded, though. I hope so.

 

[Daniel Reed]

Might be a higher frame rate if R3Ds aren't being recorded, though. I hope so.

maybe, I have no idea what magic chips hide inside Weapon :smiley:

If it has a separate hardware scaler, that may be the bottleneck; however
they could replace that chip all together before weapon ships to accommodate anything really.

 

[Dr. Sassi]

Wouldn't be ProRes 4K not be RGB or three channel per pixel, and 8K raw only one color/channel G or G or R or B? (Given ProRes444_ vs R3D)

4K from 8K seems to make sense that way.

 

[jake blackstone]

You are mostly right; some of the time. Except when you're not. Every persons situation is different and sometimes clients even value your advice and input. Go figure.

You can start arguing with a client at your own risk. If the client asks for an opinion, then you may express it, but even then you may run into a difficult situation. Most clients couldn't give a damn about what you think and even if you're right. You still will be wrong, because your opinion may be not what they were hoping to hear. And that is why you will never see me trying to offer my opinion on the choice of equipment, lighting, direction, performance, editing, color choices etc. I just keep my mouth shut, smile and get paid. Life is too short and the market is too competitive. Being pro-anything, in my opinion, is a mistake. Being agnostic will keep you out of trouble. Expressing strong opinions will get you a reputation as being difficult.
If you're a DP, it is your job to keep your client out of trouble. If client wants to shoot 2k on Red, then it is clearly your responsibility to speak up. If client insists on using Alexa, you use Alexa. If client insists on using Prores with Weapon, guess what, Prores all the way.
If my client asks for Resolve, then Resolve it is, even though I know, that I can do much better job using other software I have. My job is to please and delight my customers, just like Apple

 

[jake blackstone]

The point is its very different to compress after downsample then before.

After= good
before = far less good.

Simply the more the inage is downsampled the less noise there is to compress.

that is the reason why people at times get cleaner images out of their pix recorderd then out of their r3d's when comparing them in hd.

hope that example kind of explain what im hinting at.

As I said, the compression argument had been settled many years ago. Compressing larger image is a better way to go. As far as getting cleaner image out of pix recorders vs RAW, sorry, I had never seen it.

 

[Marc Wielage]

If RED can get this done in the Weapon CF, which it sounds like it might be possible, there is literally no reason to ever purchase an ARRI Mini. At least not from my perspective.

There are always people who want to use cameras and other gear for philosophical and stylistic reasons. Sometimes it's a political issue, where the producer wants to only use a specific camera and takes the decision away from the DP. In truth, I think this is going to be a rental item much more than purchase, and 90% of users like this in LA will just rent it on the few days they need it, then use a full-size rig for everything else. Choice of camera is not a huge deal -- but the two things I'm not happy about are a) the DP being left out of the decision-making process, and b) producers and directors who want to use vastly different cameras within the same shot. All Red, All Alexa, All Canon, All Sony... I have no problem with that. But when you have Red, Canon, and (god forbid) a GoPro within the same scene... that gets very rough from a post point of view.

 

[Ned Wilson]

It's something I've been hearing all show from all types of shooters.

Professionally though, rental houses and owners of multiple brands of cameras have been the more concerned parties. Folks who are will to buy 1-10 or more cameras where there's a lot of cash at play. I've been on the horn to a few people back in LA and that's oddly the biggest concern. Some of those folks work in television where the ProRes workflow is just flat out used because they sometimes need to turn content on the day.

If RED can get this done in the Weapon CF, which it sounds like it might be possible, there is literally no reason to ever purchase an ARRI Mini. At least not from my perspective. And with the simultaneous recording options being what they are we are past the Panasonic Varicam 35 in a few ways.

This would pretty much make Weapon the top camera in the industry from a variety of perspectives. And I think it would rent pretty damn well.

While I think Pro Rez is great, you have to ask yourself was it the lack of Pro Rez that has kept Epic from being the "top camera" ? C 300 perhaps the most rented camera out there never relied on Pro Rez. There are other factors at play. My first and foremost concerns will always be color and ease of use. If the Weapon nails these two then it's wide open. Oddly enough, these aspects are rarely mentioned on the forums but I know are big concerns amongst employers.

 

[Phil Holland]

While I think Pro Rez is great, you have to ask yourself was it the lack of Pro Rez that has kept Epic from being the "top camera" ? C 300 perhaps the most rented camera out there never relied on Pro Rez. There are other factors at play. My first and foremost concerns will always be color and ease of use. If the Weapon nails these two then it's wide open. Oddly enough, these aspects are rarely mentioned on the forums but I know are big concerns amongst employers.

Happily and sadly I've been behind the curtain to learn, listen, and observe why certain cameras became more "in demand" for general production use. Some of those reasons I wouldn't air on public web forums. Some are price and speed based. Some are perceived "ease of use" based. Some are due to misinformation. Some are due to brand loyalty. Some it's just preference and that I'm okay with

Dragon has gained traction in the industry over the last two years because the color is as good or better than everything else out there. Recent comparisons and reviews from places like CML even seem to be happy about the color. Which is nice, because I don't feel so crazy when i was saying that in 2013

Really Mysterium-X took major hits because of skin tones. Which were somewhat merited and somewhat not as you can get banging color out of MX if you know what you're doing. There are so many factors in there that come into play. IR being just one of them.

Dragon however has very, very good color. Nearly everybody I've shown Dragon to, shown footage to, worked with, shot with, etc. feels the same.

IF Weapon, and more importantly, any future Dragon Color Science enhancements come beyond DRAGONcolor and DRAGONcolor2 it will be better still.

Graeme works very hard on Color Science. What we've been seeing out of Dragon productions is a testament to that effort.

 

[David Battistella]

The perceived "color issues" are just the latest in a long list of things people have used to discredit RED. Some people just don't like the way or the speed at which RED operate, some people are protecting investments in other, more expensive gear or the gear they invested in.

Its all fair game, but the color thing and the skintone thing is done. I'd say DC1 and 2 applied to MX also does amazing things so the whole ecosystem benefits from color science.

dragon is accurate, in tungsten, daylight and mixed lighting settings. Period. What you do from there is up to you.

i also have a pretty good idea about graeme's passion and how hard he works to get color right (which is no small task) his combination of eyes, coding skills and attitude (an image maker at heart) is of great benefit to us all.

to me Going RED has always been a no brainer and I've been happy and my customers have too.

But its not for everybody. RAW is not for everybody either, but it should be.

Dragon RAW is more like a "film negative", Prores, not so much.

 

[Marc Wielage]

And that is why you will never see me trying to offer my opinion on the choice of equipment, lighting, direction, performance, editing, color choices etc. I just keep my mouth shut, smile and get paid.

Jake is very wise. :thumbsup:

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I'd turn the coin, really David.

I did Dragon because the color improvements alone.