2012: The Year of 4K

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Unfortunately i don't think this will happen. The problem is that a 4K resolution display will make anything that isn't 4K, well, look worse. This is what happens with sd broadcast shown in High resolution displays, for example. I think that Apple will not champion this . (However, I will be more than glad to eat my words if proven wrong!)

HD didn't make SD look worse, it just showed it the way it is. HD on 4K (or quad-HD) displays looks just like HD, you can't see the difference. Good upscaling algorithms can bring some benefits, just as we see up-scaled DVD out of Blu-Ray players looking pretty good, in many cases giving Blu-Ray titles a run for their money. The big issue we have here is that many HD sources and Blu-Ray releases are just not of very good quality. There are many factors, some of the biggest being over-compression and poor compression algorithms, clipped and compressed color spaces, that sort of thing. Apple is that wildcard rumor. And I actually do expect them to go 4K with their TVs when they launch. I don't think Apple will be launching their TV product in 2012. I bet it happens in 2013. What I do expect to see first is updated Macbook Pro and Macbook Air systems with "retina" or double-density displays. New iPad with the same. Next they will move on an updated iMac with double density screen and I also expect the new iMac to have many of the rumored TV features to be incorporated. Also expecting a 25" (yes, 25 inch) cinema display with actual 4K, 4096 pixels wide, resolution. ...I have my reasons/sources.

any hint of 4K bluray ?.... or we all have to wait Red Ray ?

Blu-Ray consortium is hammering out the Blu-4K spec right now. RED *NEEDS* to launch RED-RAY (or RED4K, or whatever it will ultimately be called) this coming year.


Oh, and Toshiba is first to market with consumer 4K displays. They're officially launching them friday (less than 48 hours away) in Japan. Should hit state-side in about 5 months. The 55" no-glasses 3D model is their flagship display, but they also have a 55" 4K without the no-glasses 3D (I don't know if it does 3D at all) for 650,000 yen, or about $8200 USD. 4K is here.

Sony will be showing 4K out of a PlayStation3 at CES next month. Surprisingly, I'm not under NDA about that... I don't have details though. They should also be showing preliminary 4K Blu-Ray content.

 

[Tom Lowe]

Has anyone ever seen these no-glasses 3D displays? It sounds too good to be true.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Has anyone ever seen these no-glasses 3D displays? It sounds too good to be true.

I have not seen the Toshiba one that tracks faces and tries to align viewing zones accordingly.... So can't comment.

I have seen other no-glasses solutions and so far I have not been impressed by any of them. You have to keep your head and line of sight in alignment with one of the parallax barriers in the display. So if you tilt your head more than about 15 degrees, you lose the 3D and see blur or generally fucked up images. If there's a bunch of people trying to watch or if you're too far away from the display, you can't see the effect or can't even see a proper image. Right now, the no-glasses displays feel more gimmicky than wearing glasses.

no-glasses 3D is awesome on some handheld devices though, at least in moderation, it gets a bit hard on the eyes.

 

[Zac Dixon]

Sony will be showing 4K out of a PlayStation3 at CES next month. Surprisingly, I'm not under NDA about that... I don't have details though.

So do you mean the current PlayStation 3 that is available right now is 4K capable? Or is this some kind of upgraded version like the Xbox 360S? Either way... this would be incredible, and I could see a HUGE market opening up for 4k gaming monitors/TV's. At quadruple(ish) the resolution, that would give you a serious advantage in something like COD... lol.

 

[Bruce Allen]

So do you mean the current PlayStation 3 that is available right now is 4K capable? Or is this some kind of upgraded version like the Xbox 360S? Either way... this would be incredible, and I could see a HUGE market opening up for 4k gaming monitors/TV's. At quadruple(ish) the resolution, that would give you a serious advantage in something like COD... lol.

Yes it is 4K capable. But graphics card is not fast enough for heavy gaming at that resolution.

Sony probably has the Playstation 4 targeted at doing full-res 4K at high framerates, as well as 1080p stereo at high framerates.

Or maybe they will go all out and do 4K stereo at high framerates?

My guess is that there will be some kind of HDMI 1.5 standard to tie everything together? 4K at maximum of 24p just doesn't seem like something that the large Japanese companies will like - they love 60p... 4K/60fps at least would be their goal, I imagine (along with 1080p/60fps stereo). And 4K/60fps stereo if they can manage it.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[L. Langer]

So do you mean the current PlayStation 3 that is available right now is 4K capable? Or is this some kind of upgraded version like the Xbox 360S? Either way... this would be incredible, and I could see a HUGE market opening up for 4k gaming monitors/TV's. At quadruple(ish) the resolution, that would give you a serious advantage in something like COD... lol.

It uses HDMI 1.3 which does not support 4K video but Sony is releasing a PS3 system update to allow 4K-ish photos just as they did to enable 3D. That is what they are demonstrating at CES using their 4K display products. If Sony were to launch a 4K video capable Playstation, it would be the PS4. Naturally, it won't play games at the resolution, but it could certainly play back video.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Plus computers can do 4k too when Ivy Bridge drops! 2012 is quite exciting! Almost all our current monitors, computers, and accessories are doorstops now! Gotta love how fast the tech changes!

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Has anyone ever seen these no-glasses 3D displays? It sounds too good to be true.

Right now no-glasses tech is ridiculous. I've seen a bunch of those, (but not the head tracking model also), either on TV sets or on mobile devices and although it has been improved over the years, it's still a joke.

It works with displaying depth but the price is too high...with resolution loss, and having to keep mostly still + perfect distance(s) to maintain the 3D effect, with optimal barrier-to-eye angle. One cannot relax because 3D effect brakes up unless perfectly aligned and eyes have to compensate even the minimal oscillations. The principle itself is flawed.

At this point, "multiple-viewer-adaptive ultra-high-resolution barrier with flawless real-time head tracking" sounds beyond wishful thinking. With that in mind, avoiding to put glasses on seems just lazy, and I'd say glasses solutions will get much better than glasses-free ones. At least in near future.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

So do you mean the current PlayStation 3 that is available right now is 4K capable? Or is this some kind of upgraded version like the Xbox 360S? Either way... this would be incredible, and I could see a HUGE market opening up for 4k gaming monitors/TV's. At quadruple(ish) the resolution, that would give you a serious advantage in something like COD... lol.

I don't have details, but it looks like it will be a minor update to at least push some content to show it's possible. And there's a good chance that it may be hardware/software/firmware that won't actually be released to consumers, just a demo showing that they can make it happen. They like to do that, you know... As L. Langer mentions, it won't play games at that resolution, just video or show images. If there are any games being output to a 4K display, they would just be up-scaling for now, or running off PC hardware. I fully expect the PS4 (or whatever next-generation console they will come out with in the next year or so) to have 4K output ability.

 

[Iannis Holwech]

If you are close to Galveston, Texas January 9-10, 2012, you can attend the 2nd Annual Moody Digital Cinema Symposium with D3D Cinema and Barco to Present Giant Screen (IMAX screen) 4K 3D Laser Projection Demo.

UNCHARTED TERRITORY
The FIRST demonstration of Barco’s revolutionary laser light engine on a giant screen
The FIRST demonstration of true DLP 4K resolution 3D on a giant screen
The FIRST 3D comparison of ‘ultra-reality’ 48 frame/sec & 60 frame/sec content on a giant screen
The FIRST 4K vs. 15/70 shootout at full 4:3 giant screen aspect ratio

WHO: ALL STAKEHOLDERS IN DIGITAL CINEMA PRODUCTION & EXHIBITION
WHAT: THE 2ND ANNUAL MOODY GARDENS DIGITAL CINEMA SYMPOSIUM
WHEN: MONDAY & TUESDAY, JANUARY 9-10 (8:00am-6:00pm)
WHERE: MOODY GARDENS, GALVESTON, TX
WHY: THE FUTURE IS NOW

Register Now: Moody Gardens Digital Cinema Symposium 2012

It would be nice with a future where 4K TV's where up to 70-80" and from 90" they where 8K.
That would of course make larger projection screens lacking in the resolution/ppi department.

A 50" HD TV is just 44ppi.
iPhone 4 = 326 ppi.
Toshiba tablet 6.1" = 498ppi. (not yet released)
Galaxy Note 5.3" = 285ppi.
50" 4K TV is 88 ppi.
50" 8K TV is 185 ppi.

As soon as (other than JVC, they have made a 8K projector) Sony and Texas Instruments makes 8K projection chips, the movie industry will jump past 4K.

SMPTE should have the new UHDTV1= 4K and UHDTV2= 8K Broadcast standard ready soon.

NHK (Japan Broadcasting Corp.) have been testing and talking 4K TV for many years. Now they are only talking about 8K Broadcast.
They have also developed a A Camera System Using Three 33-megapixel CMOS Image Sensors for UHDTV2; [7680 x 4320/59.94 p, (RGB) 4:4:4]. (SMPTE Members can find the whole text in pdf via the link).

If the AMOLED InkJet printing technology problems are solved according to press release from DuPont, we could see Large high PPI OLED screens in a couple of years.
Huge InkJet printed OLED screens could make projectors obsolete in the future.

Only a matter of price, and that the manufacturers will step up the game and not milk the market with AMOLED HD screens first.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

~ 300 PPI > handheld
~ 220 PPI > notebooks
~ 160 PPI > desktops
~ 80 PPI > TV

I'd say...

 

[Sergio Perez]

HD didn't make SD look worse, it just showed it the way it is. HD on 4K (or quad-HD) displays looks just like HD, you can't see the difference. Good upscaling algorithms can bring some benefits, just as we see up-scaled DVD out of Blu-Ray players looking pretty good, in many cases giving Blu-Ray titles a run for their money. The big issue we have here is that many HD sources and Blu-Ray releases are just not of very good quality. There are many factors, some of the biggest being over-compression and poor compression algorithms, clipped and compressed color spaces, that sort of thing. Apple is that wildcard rumor. And I actually do expect them to go 4K with their TVs when they launch. I don't think Apple will be launching their TV product in 2012. I bet it happens in 2013. What I do expect to see first is updated Macbook Pro and Macbook Air systems with "retina" or double-density displays. New iPad with the same. Next they will move on an updated iMac with double density screen and I also expect the new iMac to have many of the rumored TV features to be incorporated. Also expecting a 25" (yes, 25 inch) cinema display with actual 4K, 4096 pixels wide, resolution. ...I have my reasons/sources.




Blu-Ray consortium is hammering out the Blu-4K spec right now. RED *NEEDS* to launch RED-RAY (or RED4K, or whatever it will ultimately be called) this coming year.


Oh, and Toshiba is first to market with consumer 4K displays. They're officially launching them friday (less than 48 hours away) in Japan. Should hit state-side in about 5 months. The 55" no-glasses 3D model is their flagship display, but they also have a 55" 4K without the no-glasses 3D (I don't know if it does 3D at all) for 650,000 yen, or about $8200 USD. 4K is here.

Sony will be showing 4K out of a PlayStation3 at CES next month. Surprisingly, I'm not under NDA about that... I don't have details though. They should also be showing preliminary 4K Blu-Ray content.

Jeff, you really do know your tech and computer technology I trust your evaluation on this.
Have followed the evolution of videogames for the past 2 decades and have to say that the Playstation card is also a very important one. What PS2 did for DVD cannot be neglected, for example. The PS3, while having a slow start, is probably one of the main factors of the penetration of Blu-ray in consumer households.

I can see the PS4 getting 4K output cababilities, including 3D. Having also seen no-glasses 3D sets working I have to say they really are not that impressive right now. Have been to a couple of shows showcasing the technology and its just too limiting in terms of viewing angle. A good example for those wanting to see this in action is to see a nintendo 3DS. This "sort of" works because you as the user of the 3DS are constantly adjusting with your hands the screen in order to get the perfect 3D angle. Not so if you are in your living room.

Jeff, I have to disagree with you in one point, though. Watching SD Broadcast in an SD trinitron is much better than watching said broadcast in an HD LCD. Of course, watching the HD Broadcast in the HD LCD smokes the SD broadcast in the SD trinitron. I alos have a 50" Plasma that is only 720P and does wonders to the artifacts of HD broadcast, which can look bad in a 50" full HD recent model. The problem is not the sets, but the poor quality of the broadcasts. The audience doesn't know about the technicalities of this and just chooses what they feel looks best and worse. In order for 4K to trully penetrate the mass market, the audience needs to see a full, discernible difference with what they have now. Videogames are great for this because they introduce technology to a target audience that is much more open to innovation.

 

[Ryan De Franco]

Having seen digital projection of a film shot digitally a few days ago... God, was I happy it was shot and projected in 1080.

Intensity looks great in 4K. I've seen 4K projectors at their best--action films, sci-fi films, anything that calls for high detail deserves detail.

But human faces? Drama, comedy, hell anything involving a close-up of a woman? No one wants to see all that. Even at perfect 1080 there's often too many pores.

Today, a colorist at a major NY post house told me how many directors and clients diffuse their 4K scans because they see too much. On a commercial a few months ago, Steven Spielberg's gaffer Dave Devlin (who shot the first Epic short, Tattoo) suggested we thumbprint the back of the lens in order to cut the resolution down from 5K. Full BPM, CS filters were not enough.

This is not to say 4K has a place. It absolutely does. But we have to be careful how we use this technology--I'm making extreme points here because the consumer audience will be incredibly turned off if all of a sudden they see too much human detail they never wanted to see. Take a point from the master cinematographers, filter your close-ups, keep your wide shots as 4K sharp as you want

 

[Joseph Ward]

2012 the year of 4k till December 21, lol.
2020 the year of 8k UHDTV
2030 the year of the Hologram, yes please!

Red makes Redray the new broadcast standard!

 

[Dominik Novotny]

I would love to have a 4 or 8k screen in my living room and watch the news in 3D ultra high quality. At the moment I am happy with my 55 Panasonic plasma watching TV in 720p. I am happy with my Epson EH-TW 5500 watching a Blue Ray Disc at FullHD resolution at the moment. I can´t wait for Red ray and the Red projector.

BUT!

I think, we as technical fetishists will have all new technical gadgets as soon as possible, but the normal consumer? In Germany only one out of ten discs sold is a blueray. In 2014 blueray is estimated to gain 50% of the market here. Yes, the internet is the way to distribute high quality content in future. But will broadcast stations spend again millions of Euros to switch their equipment from HD to 4k in this decade? They don´t even distribute 1080p in Germany.

4k - 2012 will be the year for us, 2025 for the consumer.

 

[Thomas Pohl]

We already recognized a growing demand on 4k footage. So I would agree with the headline. Let`s see what happens.

Thomas.

 

[Dominik Novotny]

I hope you are right, Thomas. BTW, I like your small Redcine workshop.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Jeff, I have to disagree with you in one point, though. Watching SD Broadcast in an SD trinitron is much better than watching said broadcast in an HD LCD. Of course, watching the HD Broadcast in the HD LCD smokes the SD broadcast in the SD trinitron. I alos have a 50" Plasma that is only 720P and does wonders to the artifacts of HD broadcast, which can look bad in a 50" full HD recent model. The problem is not the sets, but the poor quality of the broadcasts. The audience doesn't know about the technicalities of this and just chooses what they feel looks best and worse. In order for 4K to trully penetrate the mass market, the audience needs to see a full, discernible difference with what they have now. Videogames are great for this because they introduce technology to a target audience that is much more open to innovation.

CRT and plasma have a unique look to them that does indeed seem to "enance" low resolution imagery or images that have a lot of anomalous artifacts and compression issues. Combine that with how most HDTVs treat SD signals -- very poorly, by design, and yes, it's easy to see why people didn't (and still don't) like to watch SD sources on an HD LCD.

But human faces? Drama, comedy, hell anything involving a close-up of a woman? No one wants to see all that. Even at perfect 1080 there's often too many pores.

I have to disagree somewhat. Take still photography, print advertising, etc.. as an example. Personally I think much of the processing done there is too much, but that's the thing to do these days. And no reason why it could not be applied to motion. With 4K and higher resolution, you have a creative tool at your disposal. All in how you choose to use it. Some people want to cover it up.

" anything involving a close-up of a woman? No one wants to see all that."

hire better looking women. Seriously though, I'm not sure I (or many of us out there) follow the same logic. In many ways, saying this is like saying your female subject is not attractive unless she is shot on camera at a resolution low enough to hide any skin features. I often wonder, do these DoP's / cinematographers thumbprint or wipe petroleum jelly on their eyeglasses when they're going to be around a group of women and talking to them face to face?

4K, even 8K, are still lower resolution than real life... It just gives us more freedom to manipulate pixels and create the desired images. I guess you could say that I'm not much of an old-school film guy. I try to NOT do any diffusion or image alteration at the camera level. While sometimes it makes sense because you know you need to in order to get the desired results, most of the time it's best to save it for post where you're not locked into such a choice made earlier.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

I often wonder, do these DoP's / cinematographers thumbprint or wipe petroleum jelly on their eyeglasses when they're going to be around a group of women and talking to them face to face?

Haha! Seriously though, most cinema - especially Hollywood - is so far removed from reality it doesn't really matter. That makes sense, but I would certainly love to see a few more realist films and capturing humans like they really look would be a good start. There are some incredible close-up shots in Nuri Bilge Ceylan's latest films shot on HD - I can imagine they would be even more involving at 4K. I may be crazy, but watching human faces like people I might run into is far more interesting to me than seeing artificially softened and excessively made up supermodels.

 

[Stuart English]

Sony will be showing 4K out of a PlayStation3 at CES next month.

Commentary suggests that will deliver 4K resolution stills (i.e. from early reports on Sony 4K home cinema theatre)