$101,800.00 for basic 8K package

[Kemalettin Sert]

just my 2700000 cents...

- Faster Power On Time
I can turn on a 5d and snap a photo in about 6 seconds, that should be the goal.
Powering on the camera still takes too long, its almost unusable for wildlife work
Powering on the camera and then waiting for it to reach the ideal black shade temp is extremely annoying for feature film work. Maybe this auto black shade will help, but I would find it hard to trust - I would prefer to just have more black shade memories.

- Power Save mode that does something
Current power save dims the lcd and thats about it, no measurable savings - and when the camera comes out of power save mode it spazs out more often then not, making power save mode unusable. What kind of power save mode has the fans still running at 100%?
If you cant make the camera power on and be ready to shoot faster, at least add a usable power save / sleep mode.

- Timecode Out. Retarded not to have it except with some giant goofy module.

- 4k HDMI/SDI out. NO EXCUSE this is not included at this price point, just lame.

- QUIET at low compression ratios. Dragon at 6k/24/4:1 or 6k/60 gets LOUD fast. Maybe this is better, but I'll believe it when I hear it.

- Switching from a modular media bay to a Fixed ssd bay is a big step backwards. The minimags are just normal m-sata ssds in a nice metal case, they max out at 500MB/s 6g speeds and always will. I would be perfectly happy if they dropped both 1.8 mags and mini mags, and switched to a new ngff/m.2 pcie based ssd redmag - at least that has some future, and MUCH MUCH faster download times. Faster download times would be worth the entire upgrade cost alone.

- Cable free LCD/EVF is cool, but doesn't seem well thought out - if I add a vmount, the battery is going to obscure the LCD in its fixed cable free mounting point.

- Removing Phantom power from the mic inputs on the base module. 10 steps backwards.

- Smaller/Lighter is great for wildlife shoots, happy to pay a premium for it - but Weapon + base module + battery module = does not seems any smaller or lighter.

- Moving the connectors from the lower back where ACs would be constantly trying to blindly jam in the dc connector or timecode connector is great. Dropping DC in from the body, terrible.

-No powered side handle, 20 steps backwards.

- DNX. I dont really care about non-raw recording, but the prores feature is useless. For feature films we would need DNX down converts, prores is useless for avid workflows. Episodics would want 4k prores, which is not offered.

- less Cmos smear and glowing dots good, but that should really be fixed on Dragon too.

- No LDS data on new PL mount. Nobody uses lenses with i-pin data for VFX work, LDS data is essential, Sony and Arri both support it. This is a big disappointment this still is not available, it pretty much forces you to use an Arri UMC controller and creates extra post headache syncing the umc data file to video selects, when it all should just be in metadata.


Weapon as a "usability" body upgrade is not very interesting at all, We'll upgrade for less compression at 6k/60 and for 8k , but its a really tough sell - the history of the F65 is a very good analogy Mike made.

You comparing apples and oranges.5D doesnt shoot 6K raw videos then whats up with that? Lets compare startup time with Arri and Sony.
Btw weapon power on time is 6-7 seconds
3rd party modules trying to integrate Arri UMC inside a module.
You have cable options for lcd monitor.

 

[Phil Holland]

Just a couple notes and thoughts to add to Christopher's pros and cons.

- Faster Power On. I think we'll likely see an improvement here and that's mainly due to the increased processing power of Weapon. At a minimum with this crazy new Auto Blake Shade thing having a 10 stop range and the new ventilation features I think "power on to shoot time" will be noticeably reduced.

- Fixed Media Bay. I actually view this as a plus. I have seen other's experience data corruption due to removing the Side SSD Modules and having dust and moisture get on those contacts. This removes that "potential for danger". If there's ever a future type of media outside of MINI-MAGs this whole thing needs to get swapped, so that's a con. But I'd rather have rock solid media writes. There's also a bit more going on in the MINI-MAGs than "just the SSD". RED has a proprietary method for securing reading and writing data. This is one of the reasons that top tier production can't rely on consumer grade SSDs and their implementation in entry level cameras.

- Cable Free Displays. I view this as the "quickest and cleanest" setup you can have. Based on the litany of people who have had the display in a similar place I don't see that being a major issue. I do think the new Weapon Top Handle is a bit "tall" however. Not a deal breaker though.

- Weight. Weapon plus those modules listed in a similar setups compared to Scarlet/Epic bodies will at a minimum be 2-3lbs lighter weight based on what I can see. For some there's going to be 6-9lb rigs, with smaller glass perhaps even lighter weight. I'm betting I can get my 40mm Voigtlander on there I get the whole package down to 5lbs with a REDVOLT XL. Time will tell and I'll have some fun experimenting with new compact rigs. This will be freaky because a camera that can shoot 6K or 8K under 10lbs has just so much damn potential.

- Timecode. I'd keep an eye on this one. I see "potential" on the horizon in a few ways.

- ProRes and DNxHR. I think there's more being worked on at the moment. We'll have to see what RED can pull off however in terms of 4K support or other codecs.

- CMOS Artifact Improvements. Some of the developing tech I can see trickling down to Scarlet and Epic Dragon in some ways, especially if it's Color Science related. If it's additional processing related and even something in the optical chain that is changing that gets harder to implement. Too early to know the whole story here. The good news is that it looks like there are at a minimum improvements coming to Weapon Dragons.

- I'm actually totally okay with the dropping the DC from the body. LEMO is strong and I know for a fact with one rental house nearby that this is a repair that requires the whole camera to be sent in with Epic and Scarlet. As long as all BASE or PACK modules have some sort of DC In I think it's going to be just fine. Also, for those just going out and shooting plates stripping the BASE EXPANDER off and just going with one of the battery modules makes the whole package a bit smaller. The other thing I see that's good is this module stuff has been refined down to four bolts. Nice and fast.

 

[Björn Benckert]

I would like to make a low cost module that was super slim even slimmer than the jetpack that would only have flying leads, something I could open and soldier cables onto, would have such hanging on our milo and save weight and space and only click on the camera when in use. I think people would want such for gimbals and shootover etc.

 

[Michael Gyori]

You comparing apples and oranges.5D doesnt shoot 6K raw videos then whats up with that? Lets compare startup time with Arri and Sony.
Btw weapon power on time is 6-7 seconds
3rd party modules trying to integrate Arri UMC inside a module.
You have cable options for lcd monitor.

That's cool if Weapon will only take 6-7 seconds to power up. I'm disappointed that my Dragon takes 28 seconds to power up. Significantly more than my Epic did... surprisingly.

 

[Christopher*Seguine]

You comparing apples and oranges.5D doesnt shoot 6K raw videos then whats up with that? Lets compare startup time with Arri and Sony.
Btw weapon power on time is 6-7 seconds
3rd party modules trying to integrate Arri UMC inside a module.
You have cable options for lcd monitor.

Ok, should I have said Canon 1dc or A7s/Shogun, I can be powered on an shooting 4k video in 6 seconds, for wildlife that is ideal. For features, Alexa - you dont have to worry about critical black shade temperature, so much faster time to shoot. The point was, Weapon is suppose to be about increased functionality, power up and shoot time is important for me and I'm sure many people, if your tracking rhinos in Zimbabwe, or a producer watching the clock until overtime pay is about to start. Give me a 10 second startup time, you can keep the prores.

ARRI UMC inside a module - No your missing the point, not lens control, LDS lens data.
Focus, Zoom, Iris metadata for LDS lenses, like Master Primes, Optimos, etc - Pretty much any lens you would use for VFX, where you need the data, is LDS, not i/data. Except Fuji Premiers which do both, but dont cover Dragon
This needs to come from the PL mount, cant come from some module.
Red was there first with EF and i/data, then gyro, and now that you can actually get the metadata out on a per frame basis, with the --printmeta command.
Its silly that Red still does not support LDS data on this new PL mount for Weapon, that would definitely be a usability upgrade.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Ok, should I have said Canon 1dc or A7s/Shogun, I can be powered on an shooting 4k video in 6 seconds, for wildlife that is ideal. For features, Alexa - you dont have to worry about critical black shade temperature, so much faster time to shoot. The point was, Weapon is suppose to be about increased functionality, power up and shoot time is important for me and I'm sure many people, if your tracking rhinos in Zimbabwe, or a producer watching the clock until overtime pay is about to start. Give me a 10 second startup time, you can keep the prores.

ARRI UMC inside a module - No your missing the point, not lens control, LDS lens data.
Focus, Zoom, Iris metadata for LDS lenses, like Master Primes, Optimos, etc - Pretty much any lens you would use for VFX, where you need the data, is LDS, not i/data. Except Fuji Premiers which do both, but dont cover Dragon
This needs to come from the PL mount, cant come from some module.
Red was there first with EF and i/data, then gyro, and now that you can actually get the metadata out on a per frame basis, with the --printmeta command.
Its silly that Red still does not support LDS data on this new PL mount for Weapon, that would definitely be a usability upgrade.

There is no blackshade on Weapon too.
check out this video
https://vimeo.com/124391398
0:22 to 30.Takes 7-8 seconds to boot up (Hope its not fastforwarding on edit)

LDS= ARRI LENS DATA SYSTEM is ARRI TRADEMARK tech.
from 2008

LDS protocol is not an open system and does not send exactly the same data as the I/system as I think you are saying you were told.... but the good news is we heard your requests and there has been discussion.... We've always liked ARRI.

No promises, and /i will come first, but we are listening.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?7894-Arri-LDS-Metadata-on-Red-%96-PLEASE

 

[Joe Kleber]

...refined down to four bolts. Nice and fast.

I'd like to know why RED got rid of the their hinged set-up. ...a quick quarter turn with the torx wrench and it's on!

 

[Christopher*Seguine]

There is no blackshade on Weapon too.
check out this video
https://vimeo.com/124391398
0:22 to 30.Takes 7-8 seconds to boot up (Hope its not fastforwarding on edit)

LDS= ARRI LENS DATA SYSTEM is ARRI TRADEMARK tech.
from 2008

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?7894-Arri-LDS-Metadata-on-Red-%96-PLEASE

If Sony can have LDS on the F55, I'm sure Red could put it on the Weapon PL mount.

That video is promising, the light goes from yellow to green pretty quick, is it real time or edited...
Still have to wait for temperature to stabilize at black shaded temp range.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

If Sony can have LDS on the F55, I'm sure Red could put it on the Weapon PL mount.

That video is promising, the light goes from yellow to green pretty quick, is it real time or edited...
Still have to wait for temperature to stabilize at black shaded temp range.

You dont understand there is no blackshade or temp stuff anymore.Red (jarred) stated this many times during NAB week.

 

[Daniel Reed]

The real consideration is not the "cost" of the camera, rather the ROI. Got a friend who won't even think of going Dragon not to mention Weapon. Why? The Epic is a fat cash cow for him. The greater regret I have about Red product t is that I never upgraded my Scarlet to Epic MX when Red 1st introduced the program. Scarlet (in my market) has such a low ROI, heck I've even been on productions where I was given an Epic MX to use just because the producers "believe" it produces better picture. Not that they even need any sort of high frames, all 24fps. Its my market where I exist. Now I got an Epic Dragon, and guess what? Producers and music video directors won't even hire! Why? they are afraid 6k pipeline would create post bottle neck with current post hardware, f*** $%&t! Then i tell them, shoot 4k or 5k on Dragon, but you know how the human mind wworks, most rather play safe and go with something they've used well before.
My friend's Epic MX rents 5 times as faster than my Epic Dragon.....LMAO. I even learned of a production that rented Epic Dragon (for 3weeks) only to return it after the 1st day of shoot requesting Epic MX from the rental house.
So, the bitter truth, as much as the product is important, the market is king! If you can guarantee a healthy ROI on your investment, then the price isn't the most disturbing thing otherwise even if Weapon is selling for $10k, if you can't guarantee a healthy ROI then its not going be worth it for you

I'm sure i'll get a lot of flank for this.... but

I don't care about ROI, or making profits.
I care about a camera system that creates the vision I want to tell.
I'm sure i'm not the only one who feels this way.

Sure if you're a rental house and are out to make money, then go with Alexa, C300, and maybe whatever the more popular ENG newscam is.

This is not too unlike car rental agencies, who typical carry what they consider "good enough" and easy to operate cars.
Replace the word "car" with "camera" and voila, that's the market you're in.
(Weapon may change that dynamic).

I'm so sick of reading rants focused on ROI and costs; are we all bankers here?
Yes I appreciate everything is a business.
But this is also, and first most, an art form.

It would be great if the needs of rental houses and owner/ops had their own channel/thread on reduser.

Its really pretty simple for owner/ops: stop including your camera in your day rate.

If the money you want/need doesn't work out for you, then find another skill you have that pays more.
You can always continue to work on your reel or do indie projects.

I know one guy, sure his market is corporate & web, but if his client won't pay for a camera day rental,
he leaves his Epic at home and shoots w/ a Canon 60D.

He thought it was absurd at first,
but everyone just accepts DSLRs as video cameras and his clients think they're getting a super good deal.
(neatvideo, tiffen DFX, and FilmConvert do wonders - for the web at least even uprezed;
think of all the people who still watch uprezed DVDs on HD TVs - story/structure is always king).

:rant:

 

[Phil Holland]

There is no blackshade on Weapon too.

Black Shading still exists, it however has been vastly improved:

If you take a look at the upper right frame you'll see both "Auto User Black Shade" and "Manual User Black Shade".

More details will be coming about this, but the things we know are a single Auto User Black Shade gives you is a usable shutter speed range of 1/8th-1/8000th of a second. That's a 10 stop shooting range that covers nearly ever practical at speed shutter speed/angle.

Very impressive.

I have also learned that you will be able to store Black Shades as well, which I think will come in handy for timelapse shooters.

We'll know more about what exactly this all means, but this is certainly a massive improvement and will change the way we work with RED cameras.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Ok, should I have said Canon 1dc or A7s/Shogun, I can be powered on an shooting 4k video in 6 seconds, for wildlife that is ideal. For features, Alexa - you dont have to worry about critical black shade temperature, so much faster time to shoot. The point was, Weapon is suppose to be about increased functionality, power up and shoot time is important for me and I'm sure many people, if your tracking rhinos in Zimbabwe, or a producer watching the clock until overtime pay is about to start. Give me a 10 second startup time, you can keep the prores.

ARRI UMC inside a module - No your missing the point, not lens control, LDS lens data.
Focus, Zoom, Iris metadata for LDS lenses, like Master Primes, Optimos, etc - Pretty much any lens you would use for VFX, where you need the data, is LDS, not i/data. Except Fuji Premiers which do both, but dont cover Dragon
This needs to come from the PL mount, cant come from some module.
Red was there first with EF and i/data, then gyro, and now that you can actually get the metadata out on a per frame basis, with the --printmeta command.
Its silly that Red still does not support LDS data on this new PL mount for Weapon, that would definitely be a usability upgrade.

The red follow focus system writes lens motor data into the r3d's... Not many lenses has LDS... and even less vista covering lenses has LDS... and arri owns it, so I think it's quite difficult for red to implement. also even if some use it for vfx it´s not really a standard and lenses will come in many different forms and sizes and quite rare that the VFX team get to pick what lens to use. if it was an open standard, then great but its not.

I'd like to know why RED got rid of the their hinged set-up. ...a quick quarter turn with the torx wrench and it's on!

That torx screw did not really have the most easy to get to position for a lot of setups and my hinge system was a bit rattling so personally I like the idea of 4 bolts in the back much better.

 

[Daniel Reed]

I'm so sick of reading rants focused on ROI and costs; are we all bankers here?
Yes I appreciate everything is a business.
But this is also, and first most, an art form.

Another point is, what part of business w/in an industry are you operating in(or not in)?

If we compare moving pictures to software development, its immediately obvious how much variance there can be.

My biggest gripe atm w/ posts on RU is the high number of posts complaining about costs.
From my perspective those posts read not unlike shareholders bitching about low earnings results.
To those making such posts, please ask yourself why you're involved in moving pictures at all.

Thanks for your patience and reading my anti-rant rant - I just had to get that off my chest :beer:

 

[Mike Nagel]

Another point is, what part of business w/in an industry are you operating in(or not in)?

If we compare moving pictures to software development, its immediately obvious how much variance there can be.

My biggest gripe atm w/ posts on RU is the high number of posts complaining about costs.
From my perspective those posts read not unlike shareholders bitching about low earnings results.
To those making such posts, please ask yourself why you're involved in moving pictures at all.

Thanks for your patience and reading my anti-rant rant - I just had to get that off my chest :beer:

well, I can chime in here... so, if costs are no issue why where u not shooting 70mm film 5 years ago ? Why are u not shooting it now ? ;-)))

there is a threshold, what makes sense and what not... and that may differ for some depending on certain factors...

naturally, I agree that content is king.

but in regards to "ROI"... don't get misguided here... let's just substitute that with "opportunity costs" - common term in economics...

and the opportunity costs are very high for so many when it comes to the W upgrade - that was not the case with the other upgrades. To a point where it does not make sense. Not complaining or bitching. But they won't be upgrading.

And to all of you that are bitching about peeps bitching that they are not upgrading. If this keeps going (w/ people not upgrading and jumping off the RED train) u'll see what the next round of upgrades will cost u.... ;-))) hahaha

people tend to think day by day... oh boy... Think 2 years or 5 years ahead. Think batch orders. The W body will stay for a while.


opportunity costs 101:

> for 19K upgrade to W MG - if I don't need Prores - what do I get ? barely anything. Buy a used Dragon-X instead and now u got 2 cams on set. use same AKS. win. or by another brand cam and offer more variety to ur clients. It's not that we "can't afford". I just like to spend money wisely (for my needs).

> some folks bought 100-200K of premium S35 glass. Master Primes etc. This is the glass they wanna shoot on. 8K VV with ur non-matched medium format lenses downsampled won't give the IQ that 5.5-6K w/ Master Primes give u. I'll bet on that. Except of course the difference in the 40mm image plane FOV and perspective.

So what is the incentive for somebody who does not need Prores and wants to continue to use his Master Primes to move forward with a US$50,000+ upgrade to 8K VV ?

That is what we're discussing with friends offline and none of us sees a reason to do it... these premium boards are there to handle 8K data which due to the glass, we can't utilize. there is no substantial fps increase to justify 50K.

MG W has even less features, and if u take Prores out of the equation - IMO - it is not worth 19K in the difference to Dragon-X.


would love to hear opinions from peeps that shoot (and not rent out) on why they upgraded to W...

Daniel, did u upgrade to W ? If so, why ?

 

[Kyle Dones]

would love to hear opinions from peeps that shoot (and not rent out) on why they upgraded to W...

The added .5 stop
proxy
light weight
added accessories
prefer new body design (fan and audio etc)

I shoot constantly and it seems that RED is constantly on the ball

I need 8k in my life as well as whatever future sensors that are to be released.

If you want to know why, thats a completely separate discussion.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

And to all of you that are bitching about peeps bitching that they are not upgrading. If this keeps going (w/ people not upgrading and jumping off the RED train) u'll see what the next round of upgrades will cost u.... ;-))) hahaha

Mike if you are not gonna upgrade to W why so serious about it? Just move on.Everybody can read specs and we all know difference.If you make 1000 posts more about this,Its not gonna change anything.You wont make people to pass Weapon upgrade
8K VV not for indie people Red stated this many times.Nobody has to upgrade.Look at Alexa65,Vistavision,Imax cameras.You cant use Zeiss MP on these but who gives a shit about it?
Im not gonna upgrade to 8K sensor (20K*$*for sensor upgrade) even im not gonna upgrade to Carbon Weapon.Its a rental camera from now on.
All on these years everybody cried for internal prores recording.Now Red offering it and peeps crying again for price.Get a Kipro or something else then.Its so damn simple like 2+2=4
Jarred and Red said at least 100 times if you dont like it, you don't need to buy it....(or upgrade)

 

[Mike Nagel]

Mike if you are not gonna upgrade to W why so serious about it? Just move on.Everybody can read specs and we all know difference.If you make 1000 posts more about this,Its not gonna change anything.You wont make people to pass Weapon upgrade
8K VV not for indie people Red stated this many times.Nobody has to upgrade.Look at Alexa65,Vistavision,Imax cameras.You cant use Zeiss MP on these but who gives a shit about it?
Im not gonna upgrade to 8K sensor (20K*$*for sensor upgrade) even im not gonna upgrade to Carbon Weapon.Its a rental camera from now on.
All on these years everybody cried for internal prores recording.Now Red offering it and peeps crying again for price.Get a Kipro or something else then.Its so damn simple like 2+2=4

we all want RED to do well and stay in the biz... think about that.

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

we all want RED to do well and stay in the biz... think about that.

What are you now, Red's new Marketing manager? Big Guru? Red is making miracles since Day 1.Dont worry

 

[Mike Nagel]

What are you now, Red's new Marketing manager? Big Guru? Red is making miracles since Day 1.Dont worry

when people like you say "don't worry" now we really start to worry !!! ;-))) hahahaaa

the irony is that u're the one who can't afford to go 8K VV yet u oppose the idea of reducing pricing by getting more peeps on board the upgrade or W train...

You are your own worst enemy ! ;-))))))) (I bet u heard that before !)

Man, small businesses like RED work in batch orders and/or forecasts... the less peeps jump on W, the more ur new AKS will cost - and they are already very expensive.

I personally don't care about W but we all are (at least) interested in the next gen after that... repercussions will trickle down, as the next sensor will sit in W.

 

[Alex Bros]

Not sure what you guys are arguing about anymore, but it seems to me that Weapon 8k is for the Eric Jonrosh's of the world:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-aq8DDR1vc
0:42-1:00

jk.