$101,800.00 for basic 8K package

[Brian Merlen]

No, you are stuck with the issues if you don't upgrade is our current understanding... So it is in fact a problem for people not upgrading and I'm not sure why your trying to tell that group Cmos smear, gate shadow, orbs, low light noise, and constant black shading isn't an issue when clearly that stuff bothers some people?

 

[Elsie N]

No, you are stuck with the issues if you don't upgrade is our current understanding... So it is in fact a problem for people not upgrading and I'm not sure why your trying to tell that group Cmos smear, gate shadow, orbs, low light noise, and constant black shading isn't an issue when clearly that stuff bothers some people?

These are real problems? I never noticed... I thought they were attempts to smear the Dragon. I am so dumb... All the time I was shooting it I thought the Dragon was WONDERFUL!!!

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Some people need to get out more. Whilst there are issues with the Dragon sensor in reality they are minor. I have been doing some extensive testing with other high end cameras and seriously the Dragon looks real good in comparison. Every modern sensor has its limitations. Whilst being aware of any systems limitations is prudent and professional they rarely stop you creating beautiful and powerful imagery. Be wary of concentrating on the small things and loosing the big picture.

 

[Donald MJ Anderson]

Elsie this is not a smear campaign. No need to take conversations to extremes.

Please remember if these problems did not exist RED would not be fixing them.

Red heard many users had problems. Productions with experienced people in charge of the camera deal with these problems daily. One of the problems: CMOS smear, is clearly visible in many high end series shot on Dragon. Watch Better Call Saul or Daredevil for recent examples.

These are real problems that luckily RED took seriously. Great if some of those fixes are backward compatible with my Dragon M.

 

[Brian Merlen]

Elsie this is not a smear campaign. No need to take conversations to extremes.

Please remember if these problems did not exist RED would not be fixing them.

Red heard many users had problems. Productions with experienced people in charge of the camera deal with these problems daily. One of the problems: CMOS smear, is clearly visible in many high end series shot on Dragon. Watch Better Call Saul or Daredevil for recent examples.

These are real problems that luckily RED took seriously. Great if some of those fixes are backward compatible with my Dragon M.

exactly, and for those who upgrade, great that its been resolved! i just know a lot of people are getting very emotional you could say atm and i see a lot of red sales and panicking it seems. i put down the deposit cuz that seems like a sensible option to consider until its out, so to each there own with their decisions but to minimize the small problems doesn't mean they aren't noticeable under the right circumstances... and none of them are that great to have IQ wise on set black shading delays for when people want to change settings a ton all day. these things matter to lots of people and its okay to point out the good sides as well of course but thankfully it seems like there are fixes in place for me anyway

 

[Humberto Rivera]

Brian, I put up my previous stamen below, so we can see what I said; I don’t like the word “Stuck” you used in a dynamic conversation about Red, they are always moving forward, they have improved the Camera and will continue to do so, Jarred Land is the one who put-up the Image (to their credit), something they find things, and I’m sure they will be MANY MORE. “I said; The sensor “it’s what it is”, they are just making it bigger for 8K and putting the 6K sensor on a better Camera, and they have ADDED ADDITIONAL FUNCTIONALITY TO IT.”

Try and shoot an open light bulb with any camera (buy the way, the lenses play an important part in this too), whatever the next software released by Graeme Nattrress will work on all Red Dragon Camera, however they are Hardware Improvements that are inalterable, that’s the Nature of things, the world moves forward.

“Mike, that’s is an interesting way of putting it; 'improvements' or 'fixes' on the current Dragon Camera, whatever you call it they have improve the Dragon Weapon – Stealth Camera. You don’t have to do anything if you own a Dragon Camera, just wait and see what happens. The sensor “it’s what it is”, they are just making it bigger for 8K and putting the 6K sensor on a better Camera, and they have added additional functionality to it. But the beauty of the whole thing is that you don’t have to do anything at all if you own a Dragon. If I remember right, Red has always said that this was an upgrade to the Dragon Camera. So we wait! And I you don’t just buy a new camera for about $100,000.00 take or give a few thousand dollars, that all. Humberto Rivera”

The people at Red stay up late into the night, they’re a driven company, always trying to improve their product, in both Hardware and Software, and so you can make a better Image, a Red Dragon Image.

Humberto Rivera

 

[Elsie N]

I realize everyone has been apprised of this, but I think many are thinking in relation to their own use for a camera.

That is, the Weapon is a multi-use camera. It is a stills camera, an ersatz IMAX camera, a big-budget production camera, an episodic TV camera, an Indie camera, a documentary/wild life camera, a tethered security camera (1080/720 imaging)... pretty much a camera for all seasons.

When you take the camera in its entirety, I just do not think there is another camera out there that can compare on all levels... at any price.

ADDITIONAL: And I think this is a good thing. Like Adobe's Creative Cloud where I have apps I will likely never use, occasionally I decide to use an app I thought I had no need for... With the DSMC Weapon, I will likely go back to stills work occasionally, increasing the value to me above and beyond the purpose first intended. This may work in reverse for some stills guys who become moving imagers.

 

[WesG]

an ersatz IMAX camera,
.

A little off topic... but does anyone have information around Epics being used in Imax productions? Or information on how producers create and deliver content for Imax screens?

The idea of an 8K Weapon being able to shoot for Imax is really intriguing and I'd like to learn more!

 

[Humberto Rivera]

Elsie, I could not agree with you more, I’m quoting Elsie; “I realize everyone has been apprised of this, but I think many are thinking in relation to their own use for a camera. That is, the Weapon is a multi-use camera. It is a stills camera, an ersatz IMAX camera, a big-budget production camera, an episodic TV camera, an Indie camera, a documentary/wild life camera, a tethered security camera (1080/720 imaging)... pretty much a camera for all seasons. When you take the camera in its entirety, I just do not think there is another camera out there that can compare on all levels... at any price. ADDITIONAL: And I think this is a good thing. Like Adobe's Creative Cloud where I have apps I will likely never use, occasionally I decide to use an app I thought I had no need for... With the DSMC Weapon, I will likely go back to stills work occasionally, increasing the value to me above and beyond the purpose first intended. This may work in reverse for some stills guys who become moving imagers.” Elsie N;

Wes on IMAX using the 8K is just as simple as carving out whatever size of the sensor you want to use that fits within the IMAX “aspect ratio”, frame-it within the “aspect ratio”, and edit, that’s all you have to do. It could be done with 6K as well, it just you get less “real estate” than with 8K frame, and that goes for everything else, 2.1, DCI 2:40.1, IMAX, S3D, or whatever else you want, it gives you lots of options within an 8K sensor, that’s what Elsie was talking about, anything for everyone, if they build-it, you’ll find a way to use-it. And if you frame it just right, you just might be able to get all of “aspect ratios” in your different frame configurations. There is really no MYSTERY to any of this things, especially when you’re “at top of the heap” in terms of “Real Estate” sensor; shape it however you want! One more thing, I think that the Lenses you chose also have a “Great Impact” on how the Image looks like.

Just like a Film Negative; 8 mm, 16 mm, 35 mm, 65 mm, Vista Vision, and so forth until you get to 65 mm 15 perforations, the Image gets better as the size of the negative increases, well R3D REDCODE Files are the same, beginning with 4K, 6K, and now 8K, and who knows what’s in the future has for the Red User. There is one small thing thought, R3D REDCODE Files are retroactive to within the limit of the original frame size, but retroactive nonetheless. You can’t really say that about Motion Picture Film, there are limitations to everything.

If remember right; “Che” part One and Two a Steven Soderbergh, Film, “El Gringo” a Mel Gibson Film, and “The Social Network” a David Fincher Film were all shot with the “Red One” Camera among many more, just food for thought. We have come a long way, and for some reason the complaints continue, in spite of all the advancement to this date, I guess that’s nothing new, and the many more advancement that will come in the future. For all those people that shot in 2K at the time, when 4K UHD television set take good hold on the television audience, and eventually 8K, there will be a difference in the image (the nasty up-rezz), of course 35 mm Film, or 65 mm Film Productions will also look good, like “Lawrence of Arabia” and many more accumulate during the many years that Film was King.

Humberto Rivera

 

[Christopher*Seguine]

A little off topic... but does anyone have information around Epics being used in Imax productions? Or information on how producers create and deliver content for Imax screens?

The idea of an 8K Weapon being able to shoot for Imax is really intriguing and I'd like to learn more!

Imax is partnering with Arri, the Imax digital camera is a re-branded Alexa65.

There will still be up conversions - DMR remastering - of other films, so you can still use other cameras like weapon, typically you deliver a 4k master and higher resolution cg inserts if you have them. Imax then does the up-conversion and re-frame.

For a filmed with Imax release, it will be an Alexa65.
Hopefully it looks better than the Phantom65s they used on Transformers and Island of Lemurs which was not very good.

Imax is 1.33 aspect ratio

Dragon 6k: 6144 x 3160 = 4202 x 3160 13.2mp in 1.33
Weapon 8k: 8192 x 4320 = 5746 x 4320 24.8mp in 1.33

a nice boost, but...

Imax film out is limited by the spot size of the film recorder which is 6 microns

On a 70mm Imax frame, that is roughly 12k x 9k

You would need (4) 8k weapons glued together,

Have a long way to go.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

These are real problems? I never noticed... I thought they were attempts to smear the Dragon. I am so dumb... All the time I was shooting it I thought the Dragon was WONDERFUL!!!

Just because you haven't noticed these issues doesn't mean they cannot appear under circumstances other than the ones you tend to encounter in your particular shooting life, or for someone with different, more stringent criteria than yours.

How much artificially lit (I mean lit by you, with a crew and grip truck, not just by available streetlamps) urban night shooting do you do? Looking at your work the answer is none whatsoever.

I have very demanding clients, I think very different from your situation since by your own admission you do not make a living from production yet. As such my definition of a problem, and the definition of many users here, and my standards for what is acceptable, are very different from yours. If a shot fails ,or has expensive to fix in post issues, I can be on the hook for ten of thousands of dollars, and people often call my wife and I for urban night shooting of a certain kind because we are known for that.

That said Weapon seems an excellent camera, reasonably priced, if it solves all those issues which I'm sure it is true it will, as it has been clearly stated it will.

Dragon was a bargain but had issues that made it not my cup of tea for the type of work I do, which again is specific to me. If I were shooting in natural bright daylight I too would be delighted by the camera, because it is truly outstanding in that context, what with its amazing highlight retention. In my work, and the work of some others here, other factors are more relatively important.

I think you need to understand that your work and other people's are not the same thing.

For us Epic MX and now Weapon are ideal, or near ideal, cameras almost all the time. Dragon less so. For other people a Panny ENG camera with a built in zoom is the best camera best suited to their challenges. For some situations, a GoPro is the best option. Other shoots might require a truly global shutter, (flashes going off, so some other reason) so an F55 might be the smart way to go. This regardless of cost. It all depend on what you are doing.

If you buy a camera, you want to choose what fits your particular needs and shooting/post style the most often, so you rent as little as possible and can amortize your investment within an acceptable time period.

The fewer situation under which a camera has problems, the more often it can be the best choice, but no one camera, I think, will always be the best choice for every shot, all the time.

 

[Elsie N]

Just because you haven't noticed these issues doesn't mean they cannot appear under circumstances other than the ones you tend to encounter in your particular shooting life, or for someone with different, more stringent criteria than yours.

How much artificially lit (I mean lit by you, with a crew and grip truck, not just by available streetlamps) urban night shooting do you do? Looking at your work the answer is none whatsoever.

I have very demanding clients, I think very different from your situation since by your own admission you do not make a living from production yet. As such my definition of a problem, and the definition of many users here, and my standards for what is acceptable, are very different from yours. If a shot fails ,or has expensive to fix in post issues, I can be on the hook for ten of thousands of dollars, and people often call my wife and I for urban night shooting of a certain kind because we are known for that.

That said Weapon seems an excellent camera, reasonably priced, if it solves all those issues which I'm sure it is true it will, as it has been clearly stated it will.

Dragon was a bargain but had issues that made it not my cup of tea for the type of work I do, which again is specific to me. If I were shooting in natural bright daylight I too would be delighted by the camera, because it is truly outstanding in that context, what with its amazing highlight retention. In my work, and the work of some others here, other factors are more relatively important.

I think you need to understand that your work and other people's are not the same thing.

For us Epic MX and now Weapon are ideal, or near ideal, cameras almost all the time. Dragon less so. For other people a Panny ENG camera with a built in zoom is the best camera best suited to their challenges. For some situations, a GoPro is the best option. Other shoots might require a truly global shutter, (flashes going off, so some other reason) so an F55 might be the smart way to go. This regardless of cost. It all depend on what you are doing.

If you buy a camera, you want to choose what fits your particular needs and shooting/post style the most often, so you rent as little as possible and can amortize your investment within an acceptable time period.

The fewer situation under which a camera has problems, the more often it can be the best choice, but no one camera, I think, will always be the best choice for every shot, all the time.

Robert, apoligies. Took one look at the length of this missive and don't have time or inclination to read through it. Break it down to a Reader's Digest Condensed version and I'll look at it the next time I'm online. Sorry man... short attention span.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I think this makes a lot of sense. I also totally agree that the myriad of other improvements within Weapon are actually more important than the 8K resolution.

+1 to that

 

[Marc Wielage]

A little off topic... but does anyone have information around Epics being used in Imax productions? Or information on how producers create and deliver content for Imax screens? The idea of an 8K Weapon being able to shoot for Imax is really intriguing and I'd like to learn more!

Since Imax has a partnership with Arri on a modified version of the Alexa 65, I tend to doubt that will happen:

http://www.arri.com/camera/alexa/news/news/alexa-65-technology-to-be-used-by-imax/
http://variety.com/2015/film/news/a...e-shot-entirely-with-imax-cameras-1201489782/

They also announced that the next $500 million Marvel production, Captain America: Civil War (Parts 1 & 2), will be shot with the new Imax/Alexa 65 cameras. I believe they're looking pretty hard at HDR/Dolby Vision, Rec2020, and some other techniques and will be doing tests on all of them.

(And my apologies to Christopher Seguine -- I missed his previous message on the Alexa/Imax issue.)

 

[Marc Wielage]

Just because you haven't noticed these issues doesn't mean they cannot appear under circumstances other than the ones you tend to encounter in your particular shooting life, or for someone with different, more stringent criteria than yours.

This is very true. I see issues with all the various cameras on the market, and to me it's just a question of which flaws, limitations, and benefits are most important to you.

For us Epic MX and now Weapon are ideal, or near ideal, cameras almost all the time. Dragon less so. For other people a Panny ENG camera with a built in zoom is the best camera best suited to their challenges. For some situations, a GoPro is the best option. Other shoots might require a truly global shutter, (flashes going off, so some other reason) so an F55 might be the smart way to go. This regardless of cost. It all depend on what you are doing. ... The fewer situation under which a camera has problems, the more often it can be the best choice, but no one camera, I think, will always be the best choice for every shot, all the time.

Very well-said. I'm amazed more people aren't annoyed by the characteristic "CMOS-half-frame" problem where you see pieces of a flash splattered across the frame. It is possible to fix these in post to some degree, but it's amazing how it shows up in some fairly big productions. Problems like this kind of take me out of the film.

Still, I honestly look forward to getting some Weapon footage to test in post, and am excited by all the improvements Red has done to Dragon.

 

[Stacey Spears]

This is very true. I see issues with all the various cameras on the market, and to me it's just a question of which flaws, limitations, and benefits are most important to you.

People always ask me what display they should buy. In the end I just ask them which artifacts bother them the least.

 

[Will Keir]

When does the $5,000 credit expire? I thought the cool thing about that was it never expires?

Not true. The new camera package is not dependent on NAB. But, you won't get the extra $5000 new camera accessory credit or the option to go to 8K sensor all-in for $10,000 once those offers expire.

 

[Mike Nagel]

When does the $5,000 credit expire? I thought the cool thing about that was it never expires?

the offer won't expire for upgrades (pre-NAB Dragon owners) but for NEW orders, the AKS credit will expire tomorrow 5/8 IIRC...

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

+1 to that

+ 2

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

This is very true. I see issues with all the various cameras on the market, and to me it's just a question of which flaws, limitations, and benefits are most important to you.


Very well-said. I'm amazed more people aren't annoyed by the characteristic "CMOS-half-frame" problem where you see pieces of a flash splattered across the frame. It is possible to fix these in post to some degree, but it's amazing how it shows up in some fairly big productions. Problems like this kind of take me out of the film.

Still, I honestly look forward to getting some Weapon footage to test in post, and am excited by all the improvements Red has done to Dragon.

Thank you Marc. I also very much agree with you. All cameras have one set of problems or another, I mean all, even the "mighty" Alexa. It's all about which will be least likely to be a problem on your next particular style shoot for rental, average particular style of shoots for purchase.