Why RED seems to be all "hush hush" to some people concerning the Scarlet...

[Joseph Hutson]

Why RED seems to be all "hush hush" to some people concerning the Scarlet...

Over on Scarletuser, the following question came up, which I thought may be a question that many others here on REDuser may be asking as well...

Overall, was your impression that they were fairly mum on Scarlet, other than that it was only 2 months or a few months behind EPIC development?

The following is a reply to his question that I though may help some of you better understand as well...

I didn't get the expression that it was "mum on Scarlet", so much as the carlet is a scaled back EPIC. The Scarlets are scheduled to be be ready 2 months behind EPIC-X.

A point that people haven't brought up too much about is the difference between the TATTOO, the EPIC-X, and the EPIC and how they each relate to the other brains in the DSMC lineup. In spite of each program sharing the same S35 5K EPIC Brain, they are all unique in their own right.

TATTOO = A rigid program available only to a few select individuals/companies, each going through a vigorous shooting schedule to benefit RED in their final software tweaking for the Stage 2 EPIC-X sales (current scheduled release is May)

EPIC-X = The EPIC brain with several modules for free in what is called Stage 2 and Stage 3. The EPIC-X is for only those owning a RED One as well as meeting with with the other mentioned requirements (Stage 2 expected release in June/July with Stage 3 following in August/September)

EPIC = The EPIC brain only, available to the general public (scheduled for after all EPIC-X deliveries are fulfilled)​

What the above means is RED is honoring the early RED adopters with a priority for getting the EPIC-X out before the masses receive their Scarlets. Once the Stage 2 release is done, be on the lookout for a 2/3" Scarlet release to coincide with Stage 3 shipments...

 

[NEIL ANDREW BATES]

Can't really blame them for taking longer than expected given how much extra work they took on. That sure would be nice to see scarlet's rolling concurrently with with Stage 3 though

 

[Shawn Nelson]

I'd sort of imagine a "Scarlet Tattoo" to begin around the time of Epic stage 3, then how ever long it takes that.

The tolerance for bugs in Scarlet will be nil. It needs to be 110% perfect for the prosumer market. Epic meanwhile, can have quirks that get resolved.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

I'd sort of imagine a "Scarlet Tattoo" to begin around the time of Epic stage 3, then how ever long it takes that.

The tolerance for bugs in Scarlet will be nil. It needs to be 110% perfect for the prosumer market. Epic meanwhile, can have quirks that get resolved.

I am sure they know this and they have been testing it extensively already. It would be interesting to see if Scarlet will have a Tattoo-style open testing period too.

There was a prototype/mock-up all the way back in NAB 2008, wasn't it? And visually, it looks much the same. They have been working on this thing for at least 3, maybe 4 years. No doubt all these delays are in a strive for perfection.

 

[mikeburton]

I'd sort of imagine a "Scarlet Tattoo" to begin around the time of Epic stage 3, then how ever long it takes that.

The tolerance for bugs in Scarlet will be nil. It needs to be 110% perfect for the prosumer market. Epic meanwhile, can have quirks that get resolved.

Agreed, also, people have to realize that Scarlet is a much bigger risk for RED as a company. Once they start shipping thousands of these things out in the market their ass is really on the line for support, stability, image quality etc all of which will be commented on by the masses with less than optimal user base creating sub-par footage to be judged. Not to mention competitors taking a crack at RED anywhere they can find a leak.
Shawn is right, if this camera doesn't come out of the box working like a champ there are going to be a lot less forgiving users out there that aren't as resourceful or forgiving as a professional and will be eager to slam RED in the process. At the same time, RED is a bigger company now than a few years ago, has made a lot of progress and delayed Scarlet for quite some time now so they don't deserve any slack from their customer base if they don't get it right. Like I said, there is a lot on the line with Scarlet.

 

[Lee Saxon]

There was a prototype/mock-up all the way back in NAB 2008, wasn't it? And visually, it looks much the same. They have been working on this thing for at least 3, maybe 4 years. No doubt all these delays are in a strive for perfection.

They've also upped the specs since then.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

I'd sort of imagine a "Scarlet Tattoo" to begin around the time of Epic stage 3, then how ever long it takes that.

My guess is that there won't be a Scarlet "Tattoo" program. The Scarlets don't have a single feature that won't get tested in the Epic "Tattoo" beta test. All RED is doing is removing a couple features from Epic so I don't see what would require extensive testing. Internal testing will probably be sufficient.

 

[Darrell Moore]

What Red has never addressed - and I'm am getting truly concerned about - is their ability to scale production. The Epic program seems to be progressing along the lines of the original Red One, hand-crafting them one at a time. I think they can be justifiably proud of selling over 5K Red Ones, but if the marketplace had asked for more I don't think they could have delivered. Their attitude that the Scarlet will be a piece of cake after they finish the Epic is the perspective of an engineer, not a manufacturer. Red likes to compare themselves to Canon. Engineering-wise, I believe they're its equal if not better. But when Canon has a launch date for a 7D or a T2i, they show up with the tens of thousands in stock that the marketplace demands. Red hasn't said word one about how they intend to have tens of thousands of Scarlets ready two months after the Epic goes on sale. I read on this sight that the plan for upgrading Red Ones to the MX sensor is going to take 18 months. That doesn't inspire me that a Scarlet will be awaiting me on its sale date.

 

[Joseph Hutson]

I am sure they know this and they have been testing it extensively already. It would be interesting to see if Scarlet will have a Tattoo-style open testing period too.

There was a prototype/mock-up all the way back in NAB 2008, wasn't it? And visually, it looks much the same. They have been working on this thing for at least 3, maybe 4 years. No doubt all these delays are in a strive for perfection.

They've also upped the specs since then.

Not only have they "upped the specs", but they have also taken their "modular" design to completely new levels which has exponentially made things all the more critical for the Scarlet/EPIC to be compatible with future designs. They had to make sure this design was perfect for not only now, but also for the future.

 

[Dwight Tudor]

I didn't think about it but yes, "The tolerance for bugs in Scarlet will be nil." is such a very very true and important fact. It would behoove Red to do similar extensive testing for Scarlet. Even though the hardware/software is similar they are different and require the same amount of testing. I believe Red wants to live upto their word of providing a solid product this time around, especially knowing what Shawn just said.

 

[Joseph Hutson]

What Red has never addressed - and I'm am getting truly concerned about - is their ability to scale production. The Epic program seems to be progressing along the lines of the original Red One, hand-crafting them one at a time. I think they can be justifiably proud of selling over 5K Red Ones, but if the marketplace had asked for more I don't think they could have delivered. Their attitude that the Scarlet will be a piece of cake after they finish the Epic is the perspective of an engineer, not a manufacturer. Red likes to compare themselves to Canon. Engineering-wise, I believe they're its equal if not better. But when Canon has a launch date for a 7D or a T2i, they show up with the tens of thousands in stock that the marketplace demands. Red hasn't said word one about how they intend to have tens of thousands of Scarlets ready two months after the Epic goes on sale. I read on this sight that the plan for upgrading Red Ones to the MX sensor is going to take 18 months. That doesn't inspire me that a Scarlet will be awaiting me on its sale date.

The upgrade is an intensive deal where they have to exchange the sensor of the camera...something they can't do with robots. They were only expecting 20% of RED One owners to upgrade their sensor. Instead, 85% have opted into the program.

They have a good idea that thousands of Scarlets will be sold and are now working with retailers to get the Scarlets out the door.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

What Red has never addressed - and I'm am getting truly concerned about - is their ability to scale production. The Epic program seems to be progressing along the lines of the original Red One, hand-crafting them one at a time. I think they can be justifiably proud of selling over 5K Red Ones, but if the marketplace had asked for more I don't think they could have delivered. Their attitude that the Scarlet will be a piece of cake after they finish the Epic is the perspective of an engineer, not a manufacturer. Red likes to compare themselves to Canon. Engineering-wise, I believe they're its equal if not better. But when Canon has a launch date for a 7D or a T2i, they show up with the tens of thousands in stock that the marketplace demands. Red hasn't said word one about how they intend to have tens of thousands of Scarlets ready two months after the Epic goes on sale. I read on this sight that the plan for upgrading Red Ones to the MX sensor is going to take 18 months. That doesn't inspire me that a Scarlet will be awaiting me on its sale date.

Lest you think Jannard and Friends don't know how to scale... think Oakley. I dare say Jim is not the new kid on the block when it comes to business savvy.

 

[Andrew Rieger]

With any product release, there are bugs that need to be worked out before it is running 100%. I too am skeptical about Red being able to meet the Scarlet demands and I have a feeling that it will be very hard to get one after they are released. I wont pick one up until next summer. By then, the S35 should be out and bugs should be worked out on the 2/3 models. Accessories should be in full swing by then and workflow for Final Cut should be solid. Keep in mind that workflow evolved in order to optimize itself for the DSLR trend. The same will be true for the Scarlet.

I hope guys like Vincent Laforet and Philip Bloom adopt the Scarlet system and teach others how to work with r3d in post because we must keep in mind that while most people on this forum have experience with red in post, a significant portion of Scarlet customers are those moving up from DSLR's and adapter cams, they have never heard of r3d, have never worked with any footage higher res than HD, have no idea what redcine x or a redrocket card is. For a beginner, much of the red lingo we use on this site is like klingon.

 

[Ryan Patch]

My projection: I'm going to come out on a limb here and make it bold:

Many people fear that there will be a "mad dash" for Scarlets when they are released, but I don't feel like RED is going to have trouble. I agree with the general idea here that RED must have a bunch of WORKING, solid models available on release day. I believe that is what will happen, and that they will be coming to you though local retail outlets.

Yes, I predict that stores like B & H will simply receive thousands of Scarlets on release day, and one day we're all going to wake up to a JJ post sometime around October - November about how 8x fixed and 2/3" interchangeable Scarlets are available, right now, from these 5 retailers around the world. The Scarlet is a consumer camera, so might as well sell it at a consumer shop. Given the number of Scarlets that they will sell right off the bat, it makes sense for RED to use distribution networks that are already in place, rather than spending a lot of money upgrading their shipping facility to serve thousands of individual customers orders.

Secondly, everyone is to tight-lipped because, as it's already been said, RED won't have the second, third, eighth chance that many of us RED ONE owners gave them. You get a bad engadget review or word-of-mouth turns bad for a couple weeks... a new product may be sunk. This is why I believe that RED is hiding these aces, and keeping them until they are sure they're ready for the real world, then releasing them all at once. EPIC will serve as the testing ground for Scarlet modules and issues. On "Stage 2" EPIC delivery, they are planning on having "most modules" available and working. Remember that this has been projected to be later this summer. Presumably RED will be fine tuning the modules through the summer, and be prepared to release "solid", Scarlet (or "bombproof for the masses") versions of them in the fall.

It makes sense that RED would go a different distribution route for Scarlet because of the different nature of the sale and customer base. Think about how RED has a small, dedicated, support staff of Bomb squad reps for the REDUSER base, and imagine how many of those reps RED would need should they assign them in equal numbers to personally deal with the 10,000 + Scarlets that will move in the first six months. Put the load on the consumer distribution end to sell the products, and RED can continue being awesome at what they do: RnD on awesome cameras, and selling expensive cameras to a smaller bunch.

In response to the idea that RED doesn't know how to scale, as given the timetable for MX replacements: MX replacements are something that are done by hand, not something that can be scaled and manufactured abroad. Also, think Oakley: I'd say they scaled production quite well. I'm sure JJ and RED are anticipating demand and will be able to meet it when they announce Scarlet. This is why I'm not anticipating a huge waiting period: they will bring it all at once, fast and furious, done right and simply.

 

[Carlbattreall]

My 'The Scarlet is a consumer camera, so might as well sell it at a consumer shop"

I can't understand why people keep calling the Scarlet a consumer camera, sure it cost less than some prosumer camera's but 3k at 120FPS, yeah the closet competition is...a RED Epic.

 

[Rick Burnett]

I can't understand why people keep calling the Scarlet a consumer camera, sure it cost less than some prosumer camera's but 3k at 120FPS, yeah the closet competition is...a RED Epic.

I think it is referenced as such based the manufacturing process more so then the specs. It's a product you could buy from Walmart if they so chose to sell because it is being mass produced. (Not that Walmart is going to cary a $5k camera).

It's definitely a professional camera on paper as far as I am concerned!

 

[Ryan Patch]

I refer to it as a consumer camera because of the types of people who will be buying them: home users, college students, wedding videographers, churches... the market that currently is gobbling up "pro-sumer" HVXs, EX3s, and the VDSLR shenanigans. Some will use the Scarlet as a professional camera, as it's specs allow it to be, but many will use it like they use their current cameras.

 

[Joseph Hutson]

...The Scarlet is a consumer camera, so might as well sell it at a consumer shop...

Just like the F900... :laugh:

 

[Joseph Hutson]

I refer to it as a consumer camera because of the types of people who will be buying them: home users, college students, wedding videographers, churches... the market that currently is gobbling up "pro-sumer" HVXs, EX3s, and the VDSLR shenanigans. Some will use the Scarlet as a professional camera, as it's specs allow it to be, but many will use it like they use their current cameras.

...I just saw this.

Actually I see it the opposite. Since the beginning, RED Digital Cinema has been targeting the professionals. However, with evolving technology, these professional's tools are now available to home users.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

It is like the Model T - it is making a product, which was never available at an affordable price, affordable.

A professional product at a consumer price sounds right. Though, one could also see Scarlet as a prosumer product, based on its price. Except, it significantly advances the prosumer area.