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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

The last issue! (for me)

Ido Karilla

Ido Karilla

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I hope this does not open a can of warms, please.
It took me a long time and a very scrutinized observation of various material from the redone (builds 15 and 16). I had the opportunity this last 5 month to inspect material from different DP's on very diverse lighting conditions and this weird sentiment of watching plastic puppets arose over and over again.
With this inspection and after two film-out tests I have decided to point out the one issue that is bothering my sleep at nights.

The way that the Redone capture the human skin complexion has some artificial feeling.
All textures are captured with a vivid result but the human skins manifest a semi plastic kind of feeling.

This observation is not made with any scientific tools, but I can not ignore this sentiment.

All comments will be welcome.
If any of you have shared this sentiment I would appreciate sharing it, more then that, if any of you has recommendations on how to avoid this phenomena (if exists) while shooting or resolve it at post it would be much appreciated.


Thanks.

Ido.
 
That is a very strange observation! Do you mean the people look plastic like the anchors on CNN with their skin-tone softening video cameras?

Have you looked at footage graded by different people or has it always been processed the same way?
 
I have spent thousands of hours reading criticisms of this camera, and this is the first time I've ever heard anyone complain about how the camera handles human skin tones or textures.

In fact, the Milk Girls shots probably sold a thousand of these cameras because of the great way the earliest version of the camera handles humans...so I would say that the exact opposite is a proven, now battle-tested fact--that people have purchased this camera on the strength of its image, including and especially human textures.

But, at the end of the day, taste is subjective, and if you are bothered by the results, especially to the point of losing sleep over it, then you should probably shoot something else...whatever produces the most pleasing image to you. That would make the most sense.
 
Hmm, I'm with Meryem on this one. I think it's in the skin tones where I see the most difference in what I LOVE about RED compared to HD cameras. Very smooth...
 
If you take a look at some of the clips shot by Evin, Macgregor and Gunleik, for example, you'll find plenty of human flesh in them, but not a single frame making skin look like plastic at all, or any other polycarbonate, for that matter.

Could it be your display monitor, perhaps?
 
In fact, the Milk Girls shots probably sold a thousand of these cameras because of the great way the earliest version of the camera handles humans...so I would say that the exact opposite is a proven, now battle-tested fact--that people have purchased this camera on the strength of its image, including and especially human textures./QUOTE]

that was awesome, probably the best redone still i have ever seen was the skin texture on the close up.

but there is a very noticeable color shift starting from one-two stops up(to a very short limit) or down from that setting, and the shift gets worse every step(but still in a manageable zone), but demand a more drastic curve to try to bring back the skin tone that might sometimes destroy background color depending on the color.
from cinematography test u can see that it's never accurate, or maybe only in one step(were it's almost right in most colors), and everything else is not real color, although it's not bad. just my 2 cents.
p.s. try not to insult me too much.
Click to expand...
 
I have observed this on some of the Red footage that I have seen, but I assume it was a combination of Noise reduction/smoothing and or web compression.
 
Steve, the whole "plastic look" thing has to be an issue "local" to the reporting user. I personally have never seen my RED One produce bad flesh tones. Not once. Ever. No matter the lighting would have been.

There are so many variables involved, that it ought to be really hard for someone to cry "foul!" unless appropriate troubleshooting measures had been taken already. You know... test on different computers, different displays, different settings, different display calibrations, etc., etc.

As far as I'm concerned, the RED One produces outstanding imagery, right out of the box, under factory default settings.

So, what could possibly be causing this issue other than localized variables?
 
Tico said:
So, what could possibly be causing this issue other than localized variables?
Click to expand...

Gotta agree with that. I think in the grading, the lighting and the makeup are where you're going to see it. You'd have to do a true side by side to make such a statement.
 
Yeah, I agree. That's why I'm thinking it's a post issue or a viewing issue. I've used Noise Reduction plugins that if you apply too much they start to give everything a very plastic feel, smoothing out all detail and texture of the skin. But then again, he seems to be indicating that he has seen this in all of his tests, so I don't know. Would have to see it for myself to understand exactly what he means.
 
It all depends on how shoot it, I suppose.

The other day I was sitting in the telecine finishing a commercial and I realized that I completely forgot that it wasn't film I was in the telecine with. I've only shot on film in all my years (15) before RED so I told my very talented telecine operator. She looked at me and said "I tend to forget it too by now" (she's telecined a lot of RED lately and was talking about properly shot RED material - some of it which is bad doesn't count).

Point is that if you shoot RAW well it really is a substitute (don't take this 100% literally) to film.

I know what you mean with plastic look but you have to look for organic feel in your image. If you only seek the sharpest, crispiest and cleanest image it will fail (my opinion, of course).

I filter (color, FX - not just ND's etc), flare, use older lenses or smoke etc to break the light beam up a little. That tends to make it nicer (all done in moderation, of course).

PS I was in a Lustre with scaled 2K DPX files
 
Colin, can we see an ungraded version?

I would say this isn't the most flattering skin complexion. But I think it's more due to the grading. Look at the extreme tonal transitions in the upper and lower ranges--the skin-tone to white on her shoulder and then the skin-tone to black on her face. You can't get that from lighting or makeup alone.

Not to say the grading is wrong. If this image was moving and the dramatic context appropriate, I could say it's working. But I wouldn't say that the Red camera couldn't handle skin complexion from this sample alone.

I'm with the others. No "plastic" feeling here.

Karilla, is your observation of all Red footage or just footage that you shoot? Not to put the blame on you... maybe there's a common factor like the same makeup artist?
 
yeah, talk about a horrible example. lol

Thats like complaining about how the camera handles skin tones and then posting a still from a zombie movie your shooting. :)

I'm not sure if I know what you're talking about, but I AGREE that RED handles skin tones in a "unique" way. I SUPPOSE you could call it an artificial sheen, or maybe not, but whatever you call it, i personally love it! No shit, I prefer RED's skin tones to ANY other representation I have ever seen in my life. Now maybe that's just me, but thats all I can speak for anyway lol :)

EDIT: cool grab BTW
 
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constructive conversation was lost in this thread, so I pulled out. I have no need to participate in this type of thread.
 
hubickc said:
constructive conversation was lost in this thread, so I pulled out. I have no need to participate in this type of thread.
Click to expand...

dude, I said I liked the grab. Why'd you pull it? :( We said it was a bad example for examining skin tones, which it was. No one intended any offense by it.

EDIT: when back and read the responses. didn't see anything critical of your grab.
 
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