Why RED seems to be all "hush hush" to some people concerning the Scarlet...

[Ryan Patch]

<sigh>

I see why I'm being misinterpreted.

I'm not saying that the Scarlet's featureset is "consumer". I'm not saying that it's optimal uses are "consumer" uses. But the fact remains that there are so many gear-heads with money to burn on "the best" camera out there, that the Scarlet WILL sell. Again, look at the number of 5 - 7Ds out there. Most people who own one aren't using them "professionally" as they can be (check out my friend Matt's use) but they are still using them.

This being said, when it emerges that Scarlet is "the best" camera in a $5-7k price range, they WILL sell like hotcakes to consumers, regardless weather these consumers can use the professional features.

 

[Rick Burnett]

I understand what you are saying and agree. I think prosumer is a good middle name for it.

 

[Chris Daniels]

I refer to it as a consumer camera because of the types of people who will be buying them: home users, college students, wedding videographers, churches... the market that currently is gobbling up "pro-sumer" HVXs, EX3s, and the VDSLR shenanigans. Some will use the Scarlet as a professional camera, as it's specs allow it to be, but many will use it like they use their current cameras.

This may have been said before, but i completely disagree that it is a consumer camera. It is consumer priced, yes, but do you honestly expect the normal Joe Publican consumer to be able to contemplate the Red workflow?

 

[Carmel Bruno]

for years professionals have been using consumer cameras, if needs be..
and consumers bought professional gear, if they can afford them.

 

[Antony M]

This may have been said before, but i completely disagree that it is a consumer camera. It is consumer priced, yes, but do you honestly expect the normal Joe Publican consumer to be able to contemplate the Red workflow?

This needs to be repeated more often.

I agree that the main issue with not be the quality of the camera (I'm sure Red will do a great job there), but the quality and ease of the editing workflow.

I am still having serious issues editing my Red footage using CS4.

Have the Epic/Scarlet files been tested with any NLEs yet? CS5?

 

[David Collard]

Dudes,
Jim almost single handedly changed the industry and woke everyone up.
He bet the farm to develop Red.
Now the industry is plain and simple trying to copy him.
Can you blame him for going into Stealth Mode?

 

[NEIL ANDREW BATES]

He needn't worry. The other competing industries have had decades to develop a affordable but professional camera like scarlet and didn't, prefering to opt for incremental redesigns of existing products. I know who I'm buying from

 

[Peter Mosiman]

Dudes,
Jim almost single handedly changed the industry and woke everyone up.
He bet the farm to develop Red.
Now the industry is plain and simple trying to copy him.
Can you blame him for going into Stealth Mode?

hahaha. great post.

 

[Rick Burnett]

He shoulda called Scarlet 'Airwolf'

 

[Jeff Coatney]

I don't like the terms "consumer" or "prosumer", although I am guilty of using them. I think we've all evolved past these overly broad descriptors and we're really faced with a new kind of end-user, a convergence-oriented, evolved and empowered human that desires to express themselves through technology at the most developed level possible.

That sounds very pretentious, I know, but I really believe we're entering an age where everyone has the right to access the most advanced tools available to communicate with the world around them. Red has pushed the professional toolset toward mass adoption. But "Mass" is a dirty word too, because it engenders a tremendous amount of prejudice and dismissiveness by classifying broad swaths of individuals as somehow conformist.

Products like Scarlet promise to destroy conformity my elevating the individual's point of view and their personal expression by giving everyone a base level of aesthetic and technical competence, a kind of visual and aural erudition. We have the potential to move past the elitism of format and the class system of resolution and economic motive and regard the work of people making cinematic expressions based solely on the content of their ideas. Its the closest cinema has yet come to the equality of the pencil and paper.

This future makes no distinction between the sounds and images that a huge movie studio can produce and that of the working class individual. With a base level of technology to support them, anyone on earth can, by themselves, create works that can resonate with people globally and without any kind of separation between what we regard as professional or amateur. In this type of economic model, the ultimate free market, ideas are monetized, not by an edict from on high, but from a groundswell of people engaging each other through their personal cinematic expressions. This is what excites me about Red in general and Scarlet in particular.

 

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Once they start shipping thousands of these things out in the market their ass is really on the line for support, stability, image quality etc all of which will be commented on by the masses with less than optimal user base creating sub-par footage to be judged.

My recollection is that Red had the same "sub-par footage" problem with seasoned professionals who simply weren't used to working with digital acquisition (probably many still aren't) and, more specifically, the Red One and its workflow (again, many still aren't). But it's true that most pros are used to working with issues (whether self-inflicted or simply inherent in the technology).

Shawn is right, if this camera doesn't come out of the box working like a champ there are going to be a lot less forgiving users out there that aren't as resourceful or forgiving as a professional and will be eager to slam RED in the process.

Remember when the nonmodular Scarlet was targeted at football (soccer) moms (i.e., well-heeled amateurs) as well as pros? At that point, Red had decided it could handle a mass-market product, which, out of the box, does have to function properly and more intuitively than a "pro" product. Ted Schilowitz even mentioned a simpler Scarlet 3K workflow that would yield good results with defaults (yet which, I presume, would allow experienced users to tweak ad nauseum). While the target market for Scarlet has apparently been refocused more on pros than amateurs, I can't help feel that Red has retained the "We really can't release this as a late alpha" attitude, especially given the number of units they hope to sell and that, from what I've read, Scarlet's firmware won't be as upgradeable as Red One's.

At the same time, RED is a bigger company now than a few years ago, has made a lot of progress and delayed Scarlet for quite some time now so they don't deserve any slack from their customer base if they don't get it right. Like I said, there is a lot on the line with Scarlet.

Yup. Every company should stand behind its products. Red's are more complex than many others', and that's probably why they are more cautious and circumspect this time around.

 

[David Rasberry]

There is no reason firmware won't be as upgradeable as RED 1. The RED 1 allows software redesign of hardware circuits since it uses FPGA's, but that is not something that would typically be done as a user installed firmware upgrade. That would be more typical of a lab or service center function, as when they upgrade R1's to the new Mysterium-X sensor. Firmware and software would be as upgradeable as any computer would be.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

snip

...from what I've read, Scarlet's firmware won't be as upgradeable as Red One's.

Item #30 on the Scarlet features list says "Download firmware updates..."

 

[David Rasberry]

I don't like the terms "consumer" or "prosumer", although I am guilty of using them. I think we've all evolved past these overly broad descriptors and we're really faced with a new kind of end-user, a convergence-oriented, evolved and empowered human that desires to express themselves through technology at the most developed level possible.

Products like Scarlet promise to destroy conformity my elevating the individual's point of view and their personal expression by giving everyone a base level of aesthetic and technical competence, a kind of visual and aural erudition. We have the potential to move past the elitism of format and the class system of resolution and economic motive and regard the work of people making cinematic expressions based solely on the content of their ideas. Its the closest cinema has yet come to the equality of the pencil and paper.

This future makes no distinction between the sounds and images that a huge movie studio can produce and that of the working class individual. With a base level of technology to support them, anyone on earth can, by themselves, create works that can resonate with people globally and without any kind of separation between what we regard as professional or amateur. In this type of economic model, the ultimate free market, ideas are monetized, not by an edict from on high, but from a groundswell of people engaging each other through their personal cinematic expressions. This is what excites me about Red in general and Scarlet in particular.

Well said. Though studio large budget productions continue to raise the bar, at least there are finally affordable tools for shooting and post that small independents can use to produce creative works without significant technical compromises.
Aesthetics and technical competence are skills of the artist though, not properties of hardware.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

My projection: I'm going to come out on a limb here and make it bold:

Many people fear that there will be a "mad dash" for Scarlets when they are released, but I don't feel like RED is going to have trouble. I agree with the general idea here that RED must have a bunch of WORKING, solid models available on release day. I believe that is what will happen, and that they will be coming to you though local retail outlets.

Yes, I predict that stores like B & H will simply receive thousands of Scarlets on release day, and one day we're all going to wake up to a JJ post sometime around October - November about how 8x fixed and 2/3" interchangeable Scarlets are available, right now, from these 5 retailers around the world. The Scarlet is a consumer camera, so might as well sell it at a consumer shop. Given the number of Scarlets that they will sell right off the bat, it makes sense for RED to use distribution networks that are already in place, rather than spending a lot of money upgrading their shipping facility to serve thousands of individual customers orders.

Secondly, everyone is to tight-lipped because, as it's already been said, RED won't have the second, third, eighth chance that many of us RED ONE owners gave them. You get a bad engadget review or word-of-mouth turns bad for a couple weeks... a new product may be sunk. This is why I believe that RED is hiding these aces, and keeping them until they are sure they're ready for the real world, then releasing them all at once. EPIC will serve as the testing ground for Scarlet modules and issues. On "Stage 2" EPIC delivery, they are planning on having "most modules" available and working. Remember that this has been projected to be later this summer. Presumably RED will be fine tuning the modules through the summer, and be prepared to release "solid", Scarlet (or "bombproof for the masses") versions of them in the fall.

It makes sense that RED would go a different distribution route for Scarlet because of the different nature of the sale and customer base. Think about how RED has a small, dedicated, support staff of Bomb squad reps for the REDUSER base, and imagine how many of those reps RED would need should they assign them in equal numbers to personally deal with the 10,000 + Scarlets that will move in the first six months. Put the load on the consumer distribution end to sell the products, and RED can continue being awesome at what they do: RnD on awesome cameras, and selling expensive cameras to a smaller bunch.

In response to the idea that RED doesn't know how to scale, as given the timetable for MX replacements: MX replacements are something that are done by hand, not something that can be scaled and manufactured abroad. Also, think Oakley: I'd say they scaled production quite well. I'm sure JJ and RED are anticipating demand and will be able to meet it when they announce Scarlet. This is why I'm not anticipating a huge waiting period: they will bring it all at once, fast and furious, done right and simply.

They can't sell through retailers, because their margins are too low. Also why give that margin away when this site already acts like a storefront and support network all in one.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

for years professionals have been using consumer cameras, if needs be..
and consumers bought professional gear, if they can afford them.

Not true in the cinema/video world. The DSLR stills world yes. Even the lowest end wedding video guy would never shoot with a camera from Best Buy if he is charging money. In the video world the difference in quality is huge. This aside from the ridiculous DSLR mass hysteria going on.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Well said. Though studio large budget productions continue to raise the bar, at least there are finally affordable tools for shooting and post that small independents can use to produce creative works without significant technical compromises.
Aesthetics and technical competence are skills of the artist though, not properties of hardware.

but the real difference is the script. Most people don;t realize how long it takes to write and rewrite one, and that you can't really do this alone. Most indy filmmakers (not all, mind you) are stupendously awful writers, and few writers could not benefit from some coaching from a manager and development executive. Then there's the acting.

We all know I'm a dick, but these two areas are not thought about sufficiently. You should spend LONGER on your script than on shooting.

 

[David Rasberry]

but the real difference is the script. Most people don;t realize how long it takes to write and rewrite one, and that you can't really do this alone. Most indy filmmakers (not all, mind you) are stupendously awful writers, and few writers could not benefit from some coaching from a manager and development executive. Then there's the acting.

We all know I'm a dick, but these two areas are not thought about sufficiently. You should spend LONGER on your script than on shooting.

Agreed. Narrative film making is a complex collaborative art form. We watched t "The Lovely Bones" on PPV last night. A good example of how major budget productions are raising the bar whatever one may think of it.
There is still room for good traditional stories simply produced, Up in the Air comes to mind, but it gets increasingly difficult to break through the noise.

But narrative film is a very small part of the industry as a whole. There are many different uses for these cameras.

 

[Rick Burnett]

but the real difference is the script. Most people don;t realize how long it takes to write and rewrite one, and that you can't really do this alone. Most indy filmmakers (not all, mind you) are stupendously awful writers, and few writers could not benefit from some coaching from a manager and development executive. Then there's the acting.

We all know I'm a dick, but these two areas are not thought about sufficiently. You should spend LONGER on your script than on shooting.

This is SO true it's not even funny. But the story is even a little deeper because sometimes, the person with the money producing the film is not the same person writing the script. I spent a good deal of time writing a very cool script for a sci-fi movie and the producer nixed the script because he said it would be too hard to shoot. He didn't want to have to think about all the connections between the scenes and the importance of what was happening, he just wanted some fight scenes with a little story in between!

Needless to say, I pulled out of the story writing process of that project. So many people just want to copy another movie but change around a few details it's sad.

The other problem I find in the independent world is what I would call ego protectionism. There are people that just want ALL the credit for their movie even when it means sacrificing quality just so they don't have to work with someone more knowledgeable.

Of course, I am SURE these people will want to be my best friend once I get my Scarlet. I don't hold grudges, but I'm also not going to do them any favors!

 

[Michael Hastings]

He bet the farm to develop Red.

I have tremendous respect for what Jim and the RED team have done ... but betting the farm would seem to be an exaggeration:

whatever amount he spent on developing RED was inconsequential compared to his $2800 million net worth (Forbes 2009).

If he spent 10 million of his own money on R1 development that is equivalent to someone with $150,000 net worth spending $535 (..an ipad). Remember RED had a couple thousand $1000 deposits - plus cash flow from 6000 camera sales billed and prepaid as fast as they could make them. But even if it was $100 million out of savings - which I highly doubt - it would be like a $5350 investment (a scarlet) to the $150K person.