Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

[Stuart English]

Functions

Functions

I'm not aware of any other camera company that made us buy a new camera because they enabled or fixed:

-Multiple video outputs simultaneously
-Industry standard frame rates
-Audio recording
-Black Shading (a very basic camera calibration method)
-In camera audio playback
-Pre recording
-Timecode out
-Safe/Title frame lines
-Various recording/playback errors for whatever reason
-Entire audio board

I also don't know of a camera mfg. that promised a bunch of features, which were never delivered, in the cameras they were shipping.

Initial firmware release Sept 2007.

-Safe/Title frame lines
Build 6 - Sept 2007
-(All) Industry standard frame rates
Build 8 - Oct 2007
-Black Shading
Build 12 - Dec 2007
-Audio recording
Build 12 - Dec 2007
-In camera audio playback
Build 15 - April 2008
-Multiple video outputs simultaneously
Build 15 - April 2008

So approximately six months after launch, the camera was essentially feature "complete".

The audio record quality we accept was sub-par, hence the no-cost audio board upgrade.

The Pre-record, Anamorphic, Open Gate functions were not in the original (contractual) feature set.

I'm puzzled, this seems like two year old news. What are the "bunch of features" never delivered?

 

[Brook Willard]

The only major features that I can think of that were never delivered are related to RGB files. The Rocket effectively eliminated the negative impact of that decision.

 

[Luis Melgar]

I'm just tired of always have to use an unfinished product from Red.

Ok, all opinions are respectable, likes people who likes to be testers... But do you remember October 30th Announcement?

Jannard on the October 30th announcement:
6. We also changed our release strategy. We had originally planned on releasing EPIC and Scarlet as we did the RED ONE. Bad idea. Instead of "beta" version released to everyone, we will release production versions to everyone after a tight beta program. This change takes longer to accommodate testing, fixes, bug patrol and more testing, upgrades, etc.

Red people are officially agree with you from Oct'09 and working hard to give us a 'more finished' (aka less improvable) camera.

I was working on different rented REDs from 2008, and I never felt it as a "unfinished".

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

The thing with Red's business model is that they will always continue to provide updated firmware that improves the image somehow. So the excuse that whatever tests were using the "old" firmware is rather mute. If a company is releasing a product to the public, in ANY form, it should be the best product that company has to offer.

This is not entirely true. While updates to software tools do allow for improved processing of existing RED media, there are still a significant number of things that do depend on which camera firmware build was used. The camera firmware provides the response profiles for the sensor itself and how the RAW data is digitized / quantized into recordable information. Noise characteristics and overall RAW data characteristics are vastly different from firmware that pre-dated build-16. Compression algorithms have evolved over time, so while the data rate targets have essentially remained the same, the quality of the recorded information has improved in that regard as well. This is very evident in builds 21 and 30.

With the Mysterium-X sensor, RED was not even close to done profiling the sensor when the first demos were being shot. The vertical lines in the images are part of the sensor calibration and profile and are one example of artifacts that can't simply be removed by processing with newer software.

So the "we shot this with build xxx" is most certainly a valid excuse for some image issues. When I see something that was "shot on build 15" and it shows me rich detail in the blue channel and overall low shadow noise without heavily crushing the blacks, it's very obvious that whoever shot it was very familiar with the camera and took the time to light and expose properly.

I'm tired of hearing "oh they were using build xxx, so we shouldn't take that as what the camera can really do." I thought RAW meant nothing was done to the images. So why should the latest firmware matter on how the test results come out. I'm talking about test results for the M sensor not the MX. I understand they are still trying to calibrate that sensor.

You do realize that the entire RED program has been an evolution with continuously improving sensor calibrations and adjustments over time, right? Actually, that was sarcasm... I see you missed that memo. RAW simply means that the recorded information is not processed beyond the point of gathering "optimal" data from the sensor. The sensor is still an analog device and image information from it must be digitized, optimized and compressed into the RAW data files. As this process is improved, so is the quality of the RAW files. What improves over time with the post tools, is the debayer and color processing algorithms, or what can be done with those RAW files. The updated software can't go back and re-digitize, optimize and compress the analog info from the sensor.

I'm just tired of always have to use an unfinished product from Red.

Define what you would consider "finished". No camera is ever perfect and I would love to see regular firmware updates and improvements from other camera makers instead of the philosophy of improving their RAW acquisition and sensor profiling along with adding half a dozen new menu features, TO THE SAME HARDWARE and then only releasing the changes as a new camera model. The camera being in "beta" and not working to the theoretical optimum was a known factor when buying into the RED program. Epic / Scarlet are going to be little different, there will be lots of frequent updates, especially in the beginning. If they find a way to improve the sensor profile or add a small feature, we will get a firmware update. This time around, the new cameras will be more "finished". Lots of people out there who would never install the latest firmware or who always felt uncomfortable using a RED One because it was "beta". Never mind that any of the "release" firmware revisions over the past year, and every "release" version before that was still a beta test...

 

[Steven Caesare]

I totally agree that they have had a huge impact on the industry. And it's because of people like me that they understand they need to improve things and which things they need to improve.

Your welcome.

I'll just re-post what I wrote in Sept. '09, because it seems people still don't get Red's philosophy:

I can't help but wonder if all those who express such deep dis-satisfaction with the state of RED's development* as it stands today would REALLY be happy with the alternative: A completely finished camera/workflow package... available in 2010.

Just because the process has been open and you've been invited to ride along doesn't mean a development effort with resource requirements doesn't exist.

Perhaps.... just perhaps... the glass-half-full perspective is that the workflow you seek is coming as soon as it can, and all the other pieces were finished early and you've benefited from being able to get your feet wet far sooner than Sony would have ever let you.

Nah...

Oh, and if you are going to be snarky and post an unrequested "your welcome", it would have a much better impact if you learned the difference between your and you're.

-sc

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Unsatisfied?

Unsatisfied?

Personally, I keep wondering why, if RED is such an unsatisfying experience for some, they just don't move on. Why torture yourself and waste all this time following a subject/product with which you are never going to be pleased? There are lots of other "pretty good" cameras out there and many are cheaper than RED. And most, rarely, if EVER, upgrade their firmware (I can attest to that!).

And no, I doubt that Jim and the folks at RED are breathlessly waiting around for those people to tell them what they are doing "wrong" so they can scurry to fix it. Collaboration works when everyone approaches it with good intentions and a cooperative attitude. Whine and criticize all you want. Just don't expect anyone to listen for very long.

The only explanation I can think of is an over-inflated ego. And egos that size are very rarely justified. Then again, there's always the guy who is promoting his own agenda by bashing someone else's.

 

[Nova Invicta]

Film could yet be fighting back just not as we know it, check out Quantum Film on the web supposed to be the next thing after CMOS.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Film could yet be fighting back just not as we know it, check out Quantum Film on the web supposed to be the next thing after CMOS.

The only film-like quality of "quantum film" is the name. It's based on "quantum dots", which is nothing more than a micro-transistor technology. Or in other words, these recently announced quantum dot sensors, are still a sensor as we understand sensors in terms of CMOS or CCD. It's just the transistor devices are a lot smaller. Lots of applications for quantum dots, which were first created in 1989 at Bell Labs... Manufacturing and direct uses for such tiny transistors have been two stumbling blocks for the technology since its inception. However, they have been pitched for use in image sensors, micro-display tech, etc.. since the beginning.

 

[David Rasberry]

Biggest difference with the quantum film sensor design is that the light gathering layer is the top most layer of the chip and it is potentially more efficient as a result. Similar to back lit sensor designs where the circuitry is below the light gathering surface. But the charge transfer from the quantum dots is a fundamentally different approach. It doesn't require a conductive layer as a top surface like conventional silicon designs. Looks promising.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Biggest difference with the quantum film sensor design is that the light gathering layer is the top most layer of the chip and it is potentially more efficient as a result. Similar to back lit sensor designs where the circuitry is below the light gathering surface. But the charge transfer from the quantum dots is a fundamentally different approach. It doesn't require a conductive layer as a top surface like conventional silicon designs. Looks promising.

Yep. And quantum dots have the ability to do multi-axis output, so theoretically, each could transmit separately registered R, G and B values without the need for color filters or Bayer-patterns to separate color data. To me, that is the biggest advantage that immediately presents itself.

I also think quantum dots are very promising for display technologies and their use as nan-sized LED's. IMO, they're much more promising and capable than OLED. They could lead to very high-density displays that are truly resolution independent, having 1000 to 10000 pixels per inch.

...And I think we have now successfully derailed this thread. Ooops.

 

[Steve Gibby]

I'm just tired of always have to use an unfinished product from Red.

No offense intended, but how about sharing with us Red User members exactly what the length and breadth of your actual hands-on experience with a Red One camera has been. Do you own a Red One camera? If so, what serial number? If you don't own a Red One camera, how many times have you rented and personally used one, and how far back have those rentals dated? If you haven't owned a Red One camera, and haven't rented one, on how many productions have you personally used a Red One camera, and dating how far back?

In my experience, members here don't mind others stating their opinions, but we'd like to know the specific breadth and depth of someone's actual hands on experience with the camera - especially if they're making statements like you have. Please answer my questions above - then Red User members can draw some conclusions about how much credence we should give to your opinions.

As one of the very first Red One owners (serial number 0008 and "London"), I don't share your opinions on this matter at all. Adopting my multiple very early Reds has been a way satisfying experience, and an adventure I wouldn't trade for anything.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Back to the main topic of "Arri Alexa and the Mysterium-X..."

I have a strong feeling that the S35 Scarlet will provide better results
than the Alexa, in the sense that 4K res, frame rates etc. etc.and price
are going to be VERY important. The Alexa being a 2K output camera just
seems not quite right. Again, I'm talking about the S35 Scarlet, and not
the S35 Epic.

 

[Blaire Johnson]

No offense intended, but how about sharing with us Red User members exactly what the length and breadth of your actual hands-on experience with a Red One camera has been.

Mr. Gibby I am a union 1st AC and have used the RedOne almost exclusively over the past 1.5 years as a 1st AC and DP. I have used it on many features, commercials, music videos, and industrials. Also rented it from pretty much everyone (good/bad rental houses and private owners). If there is a problem with the camera I have experienced it and know exactly how to fix it. The most common solution being do a Black Shading or re-install the firmware. But am tired of always trying to get the R1 to work.

I am the kind of AC you want on your team because I can guarantee any camera, under my control, will work perfectly because I am very meticulous and pay attention to every detail. I doubt this satisfies your curiosity on how much I've used the camera though. If you would like ask a specific question to test my knowledge please do; but I do not feel the need to explain my professional experience any further.

Let's get back to comparing cameras that aren't on the market yet shall we?

 

[M Most]

Back to the main topic of "Arri Alexa and the Mysterium-X..."

I have a strong feeling that the S35 Scarlet will provide better results
than the Alexa, in the sense that 4K res, frame rates etc. etc.and price
are going to be VERY important. The Alexa being a 2K output camera just
seems not quite right. Again, I'm talking about the S35 Scarlet, and not
the S35 Epic.

For theatrical projects, perhaps. For television - one of the intended main markets for the Alexa - those things are not particularly important, especially the 4K part.

 

[Tim Morten]

Mr. Gibby I am a union 1st AC and have used the RedOne almost exclusively over the past 1.5 years as a 1st AC and DP.

When I'm unhappy with a product, I usually stop using it. So either you're not as unhappy as you implied, or else a lot of producers/directors/DP's have been forcing the Red on you... either way speaks volumes about what a good camera the Red One is.

- Tim

 

[Andrew Walker]

All these comments from Blair make sense now, he's a 1st AC. Almost every 1st AC I've met bitches about the RED One even if nothing goes wrong. But if it hangs once on a boot up or something extremely minor you will never hear the end of it.

I personally like being apart of a camera company that continues to improve upon there product.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Mr. Gibby I am a union 1st AC and have used the RedOne almost exclusively over the past 1.5 years as a 1st AC and DP. I have used it on many features, commercials, music videos, and industrials. Also rented it from pretty much everyone (good/bad rental houses and private owners). If there is a problem with the camera I have experienced it and know exactly how to fix it. The most common solution being do a Black Shading or re-install the firmware. But am tired of always trying to get the R1 to work.

I am the kind of AC you want on your team because I can guarantee any camera, under my control, will work perfectly because I am very meticulous and pay attention to every detail. I doubt this satisfies your curiosity on how much I've used the camera though. If you would like ask a specific question to test my knowledge please do; but I do not feel the need to explain my professional experience any further.

Let's get back to comparing cameras that aren't on the market yet shall we?

I can't help but reiterate my previous musing...

Personally, I keep wondering why, if RED is such an unsatisfying experience for some, they just don't move on. Why torture yourself and waste all this time following a subject/product with which you are never going to be pleased? There are lots of other "pretty good" cameras out there and many are cheaper than RED. And most, rarely, if EVER, upgrade their firmware (I can attest to that!).

And no, I doubt that Jim and the folks at RED are breathlessly waiting around for those people to tell them what they are doing "wrong" so they can scurry to fix it. Collaboration works when everyone approaches it with good intentions and a cooperative attitude. Whine and criticize all you want. Just don't expect anyone to listen for very long.

The only explanation I can think of is an over-inflated ego. And egos that size are very rarely justified. Then again, there's always the guy who is promoting his own agenda by bashing someone else's.

:mad2:

But as someone who has already had a couple of careers and is looking at the role of DP as my next adventure, I can't help but ask, quite sincerely, why would you choose to aggravate yourself like this? If you are as busy and successful as you say, why not choose projects that are more fulfilling? Or a different line of work? If you really like what you do but hate the RED camera and the way the company does business, why stress yourself so much? I doubt that RED is going to change their business model enough to meet your expectations. To me, it seems that this is the way they roll; they stay on the leading edge - and it seems that this is the way most of their customers and prospective customers, (like me) like it.

As someone who looks forward to many years of happy shooting, you're bummin' me out! :crying:

 

[Steve Gibby]

Mr. Gibby I am a union 1st AC and have used the RedOne almost exclusively over the past 1.5 years as a 1st AC and DP. I have used it on many features, commercials, music videos, and industrials. Also rented it from pretty much everyone (good/bad rental houses and private owners). If there is a problem with the camera I have experienced it and know exactly how to fix it. The most common solution being do a Black Shading or re-install the firmware. But am tired of always trying to get the R1 to work.

I am the kind of AC you want on your team because I can guarantee any camera, under my control, will work perfectly because I am very meticulous and pay attention to every detail. I doubt this satisfies your curiosity on how much I've used the camera though. If you would like ask a specific question to test my knowledge please do; but I do not feel the need to explain my professional experience any further.

Ok Blaire...here are my thoughts on that:

Your experience is just that - your experience. You're not the only one who has had to go through a learning curve for using Red One, and after that keep up on the firmware upgrades, nuances of using the camera, etc. No...everyone who has used, uses now, or will use Red One pays their dues. Its part of the process with this new camera system.

I've owned initially four Reds, now down to two, for what will be three years this August 30. In that time my cameras have been used by me and my crews all over the world for a long list of international and national television programs, music videos, high end business productions, extensive stock footage, and high-profile BluRay and DVD projects. We do multiple genres of production - alternative sports, adventure travel, wildlife, music, nature, cultures, etc. If a camera is going to break or have problems, it will be in the harsh environments and conditions we work in. We've had the cameras, and used them daily, for all this time - and there is no issue with Red One we haven't faced, solved, and moved on from. My Red cameras have been very reliable.

Actually, we don't use an AC on my crews. Let me explain. There are a vast number of non-union, mobile, non-hardlined EFP style productions produced each year - in fact the sheer number of these style productions done each year absolutely dwarfs the number of union cine-style and hardlined EFP productions done. I'm an executive producer, director, DP, and cinematographer for exactly that - non-union, mobile, non-hardlined EFP productions, with the added twist that we do our productions with hybrid equipment and techniques. We don't use an AC per se - we do use a DP, and we do use production assistants. Our crews are mobile and small - and everyone on them (director, DP, cinematographer, PA) must be facile in the technology of the Red One camera, and its use and nuances. We know exactly how to maintain, use, and maximize the Red One camera. Everyone on my crews must have a good team attitude, have broad skill sets, and be able to seriously multi-task when it comes to Red One.

Red has done an excellent job of improving and growing the camera over the past 32 months since the first cameras delivered - mine included. Everyone who received the first cameras knew that effectively we would be beta testers - and we were way stoked to function in that way. We busted our rears to really push the camera in the field, and then let Red know its pluses and minuses. That benefitted Red, but it also really benefited those people who bought Red, or started using Red later - like yourself.

Constructive input is good for any company - especially companies like Red which feed off and incorporate user input. That said, there are many ways to get that input to Red in a proactive, nonabrasive manner. After all, what we're all interested in is helping Red to perfect the camera, and incorporate that input into the new cameras on the horizon. There are a ton of us very early Red camera veterans who have happily used the camera, grown our skill sets with it, and given extensive feedback to Red.

-----------------------

Back to Alexa and M-X equipped Red One cameras. I personally think competition and options in the production arena are healthy for the industry as a whole. Though since August 2007 me and my crews have mostly specialized down into using Red, we have also occasionally used cameras from Sony and Panasonic when I decided that it was the best way to go for a project, or portion thereof. Looking forward, I'll mostly stick with Red cameras - especially Epic and Scarlet. But to each their own on that. Again, options are healthy for the industry.

 

[Jannard]

How about we all agree that the RED ONE was put out as a "unfinished" (customers knew that) from a company with absolutely no camera making experience... and the RED ONE has progressed quite a bit over time. It is also safe to assume that this company, who knew nothing just over 4 years ago... is probably building quite a library of knowledge for future models.

How's that sound?

Now... let's go back to Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X discussions and try to keep the personal banter down to a minimum.

Jim

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

Great idea Jim, thanks.

Can We talk a bit about the difference in "compression" although neither are released yet (save M-X)

I understand both use Wavelet compression... the cost difference (to me) seem relative to Arri sticking with the belief (up for debate) that LESS compression is
good... wherein the goal is 2 to 1.

I say this because I get push back a lot on RED's 10-1 compression scheme... which I then counter with

1. Differentiating SOPHISTICATED compression (wavelet) versus MPEG. (easy thanks to Graeme's explanations)

what is NOT easy is differentiating RED compression to ARRI's Compression other than to say its a battle of "MATHLETES"

I will say that the increased cost of the ARRI is perceived to be (whether accurate or not) more expensive due to less compression.

thoughts? thanks!