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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

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Tim Whitcomb said:
Great idea Jim, thanks.

Can We talk a bit about the difference in "compression" although neither are released yet (save M-X)

I understand both use Wavelet compression... the cost difference (to me) seem relative to Arri sticking with the belief (up for debate) that LESS compression is
good... wherein the goal is 2 to 1.

I say this because I get push back a lot on RED's 10-1 compression scheme... which I then counter with

1. Differentiating SOPHISTICATED compression (wavelet) versus MPEG. (easy thanks to Graeme's explanations)

what is NOT easy is differentiating RED compression to ARRI's Compression other than to say its a battle of "MATHLETES"

I will say that the increased cost of the ARRI is perceived to be (whether accurate or not) more expensive due to less compression.

thoughts? thanks!
Click to expand...

We believe that the RED images now stand up to any camera... and you can record to a compact flash card. Pretty convenient. We also know that less compressed options are needed... which is why EPIC will have REDCODE 250. With us, you can have it both ways. Not sure anyone else has a program like this one...

Jim
 
Jannard said:
We believe that the RED images now stand up to any camera... and you can record to a compact flash card. Pretty convenient. We also know that less compressed options are needed... which is why EPIC will have REDCODE 250. With us, you can have it both ways. Not sure anyone else has a program like this one...

Jim
Click to expand...

First, I agree with RED's images. for us, if Mysterium "M" was all we had, Id still be thrilled as its been amazing for us.

But ah yes, recording on CF versus about a $100K plus RAW recorder. GREAT point. thanks, that will help.

Look forward to hearing how the REDCODE plays out... hard to imagine RC250 when RC42 rocks for us already.

MY dilemma is not limited to RED unfortunately... there are just some people out there that are convinced that if something costs more, it must be better.
 
The only thing I know right now, is that I have no need for a "uncompressed" 4k image as a capture format*. Higher Bitrate Redcode GREAT! I will always argue that resolution trumps compression when it comes to capture formats (to a reasonable point of course- but down-sampling does some very nice things). Especially when you factor in the style of compression Red has chosen. It's very important for people to understand how it is different than the DCT image compression we are all very familiar with.

Aaton's stance, and to some point Arri's (what little they have said) don't align with this at all, and they are about it make things very difficult on us all with little benefit.




*this is a very carefully worded sentence.
 
OK.....so let's see a side by side Compression Test between
the new Red and the new Alexa.

I hope we don't have to wait to long. Hopefully this Summer
we will see the release of the new Red Cameras.
:cheers2::cheers2::cheers2:
 
Blaire Johnson said:
I am a union 1st AC and have used the RedOne almost exclusively over the past 1.5 years as a 1st AC and DP.
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From my experience it has been the first AC's who have been the least receptive and most critical of the RedOne. Many of these criticisms are warranted but others I think are geared into a resistance to change and snobbery related to arri. Also from my experience the most receptive have been producers, directors and younger DPs in that order who have been offered over the last 2.5 years an opportunity for a quality/cost ratio unheard of previously. How many films just wouldn't have happened if the Red wasn't around? My creative side tells me every dollar spent on technical gear is one less dollar going into other more direct forms of providing production value.

I feel your pain when it has been your job to fix things when they go astray. I have felt that myself. Many in our industry are quite inflexible and in some ways Red has been its own worst enemy and turned some potential clients off permanently because of negative past experiences related to the development process that have been resolved by now.

In many ways I wish Red in their future products would have the first AC first and foremost in their design/development strategy but lets face it - that is not what will move the industry. Film had 100 years to work out the hiccups - digital is obviously the future whether Arri or Red or some new kid on the block working in their garage at present. One thing no one can disagree on is that Red has certainly pushed the envelope and has had, and I believe will have, a profound role as an engine in that progression.

I truly love my Red but that doesn't mean we havn't had some knock out dish smashing fights along the way. My best hope for the Epic is that these won't even be questions and we can go back to more interesting debates like about how to make pretty pictures.

-noel
 
N_Villers said:
From my experience it has been the first AC's who have been the least receptive and most critical of the RedOne. Many of these criticisms are warranted but others I think are geared into a resistance to change and snobbery related to arri. Also from my experience the most receptive have been producers, directors and younger DPs in that order who have been offered over the last 2.5 years an opportunity for a quality/cost ratio unheard of previously.
Click to expand...

I think that the obvious retort to this is that AC's have to handle the camera and make them work, while producers, directors and a lot of DP's don't.

Most producers are going to take the lower rate, no matter what. Even if spending an extra hundred up front, costs them thousands later. A lot of their job is to drive costs down and get the deals. That has little to nothing to do with how a camera works or quality. How many times do you have to explain why you can't use a Red-Raid on a car mount, to the same people? Or why it's probably not a good idea to shoot everything at 2k. Even DP's that operate can hardly build a Red Camera and have no idea what goes where.

AC's are the unsung heroes who have to prep, manage and work hands-on with hundreds of ludicrously expensive pieces of gear that go into the average camera package. When that industry sets several standards, that are genuinely good ideas, and AC's are forced to make a camera, that doesn't adhere to those standards, work... then yeah, they're gonna be a little pissed at it and they'll drag their feet a bit. It's their ass if the camera's not setup correctly or performing correctly. If the lenses are off, it's their fault. If the camera's battery components seem to be falling apart, it's their fault. They get their asses chewed out because of these kinds of issues. It's really hard work and there is definitely a lot of resentment towards RED for some of its faultiness & sometimes unmotivated resistance of standards. (BNC's, XLR's, dovetails, base plates, etc.) Without some of these "standards", Element Technica wouldn't be so popular.

Personally, if I were to make a camera, one group I'd invite and really listen to are AC's. They're going to have the most hands-on experience with it. Make it a smart camera, well designed and they'll push it for you. They've got a lot of ears.

Just my .02
 
CJ, N_Villers.... you guys are awesome!
Personally, if I were to make a camera, one group I'd invite and really listen to are AC's.
Click to expand...
That's the smartest thing I've heard in sometime.
 
I was very impressed reading this morning the following words from Jim:

"Someone commented about us being a marketing company. We are.
But we also employ over 200 engineers developing sensors and electronics for our camera program.
They are RED employees. I know for sure. I sign the checks. Everything EPIC and Scarlet is being core engineered internally.
That doesn't really mean anything... except we are not just a marketing company.
I am quite sure that we have more dedicated resources involved in digital cinema motion capture
than any other company (assuming you don't count line-skipping).

Jim"

Read more>>>
 
Long Live Sanjin!!!!

3719820429_59d2cd7524.jpg
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
I was very impressed reading this morning the following words from Jim: <snip>
Click to expand...

Even more interesting to me was this later tidbit:
One clarification... with EPIC you can have an ISO 25-250 brain or an ISO 200-2000 brain. These aren't different brains... it is a quick mod to the same brain. Like loading different film stocks.
Click to expand...

When might we expect more info on this? Is this an option one would choose when purchasing?
 
The battle is between more resolution and more compression and less resolution and less compression.

After shooting some tests @4k in RC 28 with ARRI MasterPrimes, I think I am prejudiced...

I think I'll do the higher resolution...

And the CF card (or similar).

But there are other factors. The Higher rez gives higher perceived precission in levels as well, and thus "better" use of the dynamic range available. (take a 4k image. Make it a 4k bitmap and scale it to an HD grayscale and you'll se what I mean...)

But the clash of the titans anno 2010 seems to become the Alexa vs Epic story...
 
After awhile a lot of people will discover that ALEXA is just a kind of "The oldest profession" deal or digital trafficking plot.

With the starting price tag at $68.000 today when you get an excellent S35mm DOF at HD resolution with 40x cheaper HDDSLR like a 7D is something very insane.

ALEXA $68.000 : Canon 7D $1.700 = 40 x
 
SJ, you know I love you, but some times you go so far off to make a point that I wonder if you are posting from a Vienna bar with a cold brew in your hand.

Comparing Alexa's IQ and a 7D's IQ is ridiculous. And you know cause you have one. DSLR's are so 3-months ago. ;)
 
Roberto Lequeux said:
SJ, you know I love you, but some times you go so far off to make a point that I wonder if you are posting from a Vienna bar with a cold brew in your hand.

Comparing Alexa's IQ and a 7D's IQ is ridiculous. And you know cause you have one. DSLR's are so 3-months ago. ;)
Click to expand...

Roberto,

I was thinking in a way that if George Lucas who now preparing one of his latest

productions for TV or Broadcast is going to use some of Canon DSLRs for it.

That means for TV HD DSLR quality is good enough.

Why would somebody need Alexa that costs 40 x more than 7D and can deliver max 2K only.

Then we are coming to the advantage of R1MX and Epic that can give you 4K & 5K where

your acquisition and archive are almost at film quality today and tomorrow even can equal to that (film).

Now I can understand why Alexa must "sell" herself in a way as I mentioned above.

Also she needs something to earn.

That's normal and pretty understandable.

Forgive you sweetie and forgive you baby Alexa.

Sorry but I can't pay you.
 
RANT: "Good enough" - to me "good enough" is never "good enough". If you're going to put a year of your life into a making a movie, why would you use "good enough".

I started out with a VHS camcorder and Video8. It wasn't good enough. Moved onto SVHS. Not good enough. Then an old broadcast Panasonic MII. That was actually quite nice :-) But not good enough. Then it was miniDV and DVCAM. I missed out on the HDV cameras as they really were not good enough. I got fed up with the macroblocks when you pointed them at trees. (see: http://nattress.com/JVC_Artifacts.jpg )
Now I had a lot of fun with the original RED One, and it was better than anything else I'd used previously, but there was always room for improvement. Now I'm using M-X and it's fantastic, but every day I'm looking at ways to make it better still.

To me "good enough" is never "good enough".

Graeme
 
Variable sensitivities?!!

Huge news!
 
If the "Alexa" is priced as they suggest, the M-X will be in ever greater demand.

The Red Rocket is truly something you can't give up once you've used it. I believe it needs to be bundled and marketed further because it is a game changer. RR should be a part of the Offence, not just the Defence at this point. Thanks RED.
 
JD Holloway said:
Variable sensitivities?!!

Huge news!
Click to expand...

If you mean variable sensitivities via different camera brains then.....

I think this is FUTURE news. I think Jim implied
that this would be possible in the future, and
not this Summer.

However, I hope my assumption is wrong.

So in the Future you might be able to buy an Epic Brain
that is ISO 25 - 200, or a Brain that is ISO 200 - 2000 etc. etc.
:drool5::drool5::drool5:
 
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