Any more Dragon upgrades make it out yet?

[Andreas Mendritzki]

+1 I haven't cancelled my (already paid for) upgrade, but my eyes are wide open to the reality of aligning oneself with this company moving forward, and I cannot guarantee supporting them in the future when they refuse to support me.

In fairness, RED didn't ask for you to pay for your upgrade when you placed your order. Its my understanding that you only have to pay once your place in line comes up. I can understand being pissed off if I had 9k sitting in a bank in california doing nothing..... Contact your bomb squad. Who knows, maybe they can reimburse you while still holding your place in line. Worth a try...

 

[Shane Daly DP]

With all due respect, its not like you don't already have cameras guys... Who cares if some of us might not receive it this month, or next? If one really has an issue with this, then try to buy a Carbon Dragon today and skip the line... I personally like the upgrade program, sure it takes a lot of man hours to swap out all the sensors, but I much rather wait around then have to buy a whole new camera, IE like with Arri, Sony, Canon, what have you... So guys don't get too down on the process, its a lot better then rebuying the same camera with minor spec increases, over and over... Look at our motion mount vs Alexa Classic/Studio. Some companies make you buy a whole new camera for a shutter! Personally I am quite happy to wait, if it means I don't need to buy a new body constantly... I'll wait for Dragon, and for my Motion Mount and whenever they come they come and that'll be fine by me...

The point is information - we can't make professional decisions and plans with silence from the vendor. It has been months and months now. And the simple fact is the famous people have been prioritized whatever the official line is about low sensor yields, to the deep insult of some of the more serious professionals who use this system and have supported Red from nearly the very start on large projects also.

 

[Shane Daly DP]

In fairness, RED didn't ask for you to pay for your upgrade when you placed your order. Its my understanding that you only have to pay once your place in line comes up. I can understand being pissed off if I had 9k sitting in a bank in california doing nothing..... Contact your bomb squad. Who knows, maybe they can reimburse you while still holding your place in line. Worth a try...

It's not about the money, I can afford for Red to profit a little from my upfront payment, the point is informing your clients properly, and supporting your professional base or lose them, it's that simple.

 

[Shane Daly DP]

How famous is your friend, Cid?

I wonder about that also. I've had a verse terse exchange with a few dudes in the sales department recently who obviously think I'm a retard - it's an insult to be expected to believe that the high profile clients haven't been quietly pushed to the front of the line above other equally valid working professionals.

 

[Phil Holland]

I'm not Red, but I'll drop everything I know about where Dragon is at in terms of delivery.


At the end of this month orders for Carbon Dragon begin to process and those will be first or high priority. This was information released here on Reduser.


In terms of the few cameras that are out in the wild, just be aware that every camera company does this. Sometimes nearly a whole year before a release. And as someone who's been on that side of the fence for a few other manufacturers you don't even want to know how crazy things are when features are removed from the shipped production model just for the purpose of getting people to pay later or buy more. Red doesn't do this. This is actually one of the many reasons I'm more or less a Red advocate at this point actually.

Getting a few bodies out there serves many purposes. Yes, it's nice to get the marketing benefits from having cameras on high end productions, however, getting cameras into the field showcase potential common stress test scenarios that can be observed and studied which can reflect the shipped version. We've seen this already in the couple of firmware updates recently on what's been added to the Dragon build.

There's an advantage to certain folks doing everything in their power to try and break a camera as well, which falls outside of typical use. I know every time I've been near a Dragon I've tried to break it or crash it. And I've also looked for various other types of weirdness. Just a couple weeks ago I dedicated a nearly an hour to exploring that particular Carbon Fiber and looking for gremlins.

What we've been told and know already is the low sensor yield. I can tell from somebody who's been "along for the ride" from beta to production cameras that this is absolutely the biggest culprit for delays right this second. Something like this is outside of Red's control. This is also information that's been made available here on Reduser. Other companies tend to do a bit of stockpiling before a release as well as a longer R&D to market map (again, something we aren't privy to usually), this Dragon sensor is a bit more bleeding edge and difficult to manufacture due to a variety of reasons. Big sensitive sensors with lots of pixels are tricky mistresses.

Other companies tend to not even announce a product until a bunch of them can be boxed and ready to ship. With Red, we go along for a bit of that journey from concept to completion. There's been discussion of the pros and cons using this sort of transparency from a commercial standpoint in some of Jim's older posts. Dragon was announced some time ago, they have shared some of the difficulties and changes that have happened along the way. I think in the future Red will be a bit more tight lipped than they have been over the years as they have received a lot of criticism regarding product development and release dates.


I certainly understand the frustration from a professional perspective. Hopefully Red will have a status update soon on where thing are at. I'm on both sides here, where I want one real bad, more than ever since touching the last build, but it's clear to see that certain things have happened that have caused this delay.

 

[Shane Daly DP]

I'm not Red, but I'll drop everything I know about where Dragon is at in terms of delivery.


Phil

Thanks for your post. You're obviously on the inside more than I am, a friend of Red, when I obviously feel that I should be also but clearly am just another paying customer, hence some of my frustration. It's jobs for the boys if your face fits = bullshit.

If there is absolutely no way for prioritizing then why do these requests go "up to management" for consideration - the fact is they are considered and if worthy, the faithful / famous get looked after. Just not this guy.

 

[Phil Holland]

Thanks for your post. You're obviously on the inside more than I am, a friend of Red, when I obviously feel that I should be also but clearly am just another paying customer, hence some of my frustration. It's jobs for the boys if your face fits = bullshit.

If there is absolutely no way for prioritizing then why do these requests go "up to management" for consideration - the fact is they are considered and if worthy, the faithful / famous get looked after. Just not this guy.

I'm a paying customer as well. I've also met a good deal of folks who work at Red now. It's not really about favoritism and feelings, it's best to leave those thoughts at the door really. Although Red certainly demonstrates a bit of "love" towards helpful/supportive individuals, which has been witnessed in the past via upgrade priorities and such.

Often the person you're speaking to may not know exactly what the current status of allocation resources is. Heck, they may not even know if there's another one ready to go just yet. They need to ask their supervisor or whoever to really "know" anything. That's just how business architecture is setup.

This isn't Red overlooking you, in fact it's the opposite. This is Red trying to make a bulletproof and pretty revolutionary camera that keeps you working for the next few years. Often the short term wants overlook the potential long term gains. From a customer perspective we want Dragon to be something different, better, and more. Red has been working hard to do just that. Once Dragon ships in numbers we'll likely forget about this little manufacturing delay.

Believe me. I'm hungry for Dragon, perhaps even more than most. But, I'll be getting a camera whenever there's one ready for me. Has it effected certain things around me professionally? Yep, but that's mostly my business. However, I've got an Epic w/ Mysterium-X I can use right this second for those gigs and that's the best tool I have at my disposal. And that's a good tool no less.

 

[John Marchant]

'If your face fits' is a bit strong...

I'm sitting here settling in for another evening of tearing systems apart, beating up camera gear, firing email back and forth with RED... - its my own time invested with nothing expected back but a better camera system for all of us.

I'm not a big-shot, and actually thats probably a good part of why I have a Dragon right now. If I was a rockstar DP I'd be too busy to invest the kind of time and effort I do to work on this stuff.

Red will update us all when there's news, why wouldn't they?

 

[Shane Daly DP]

"Red certainly demonstrates a bit of "love" towards helpful/supportive individuals, which has been witnessed in the past via upgrade priorities" is exactly my point, I obviously haven't been helpful/supportive enough!

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

I'm sure Red is just as frustrated...remember they are an equipment manufacturing and sales company. If they can't move product they don't make money. They still have staff and overhead so naturally the pressure is on to get new product out the door.

I keep bugging my Bomb Squad rep every week asking for an update. There's nothing to report other than what Phil said.

I would suggest Red will likely push back the carbon releases in favour of keeping the others who are front of the line happy. They have a habit of doing that...and someone who bought two M's I would hope that counts for something. combined with getting on that Dragon upgrade list PDQ.

 

[Shane Daly DP]

"If I was a rockstar DP I'd be too busy to invest the kind of time and effort I do to work on this stuff." apparently Libatique, Bay, Fincher et al have all put hours and hours into the development according to the Red salesmen, and that's why they have been fast tracked and not because they are huge stars.. #bullshit

I used to R&D with Kodak, I've been offering my services for over a year without response.

 

[Shane Daly DP]

"I would suggest Red will likely push back the carbon releases in favour of keeping the others who are front of the line happy" Dream on! My point is that unless you are on the favored list you are out in the cold. At least in Nevada right now it's 82

I bought M also, means nothing, I now see that the old Red is dead and the new one is corporate in every sense.

 

[Keegan@Netflix]

We are beating a dead horse on this subject.

RED wants to get cameras and provide upgrades as quickly as possible, what benefit do we have from holding out on customers? None.

Jim and Jarred expect the best from our Engineering team who is working around the clock to make sure sensors and boards are at the highest quality. It takes time, obviously there were some unforeseen yield issues with sensors which we have communicated.

In regards to the allocation process, Jarred has communicated why they have hand picked certain individuals. This choice was done before we started taking orders. RED has always tried to be as fair as possible staying in order of when customers place their orders. Also the order allocation doesn't replace the fact that we still provide a high level of support to our customers which we will continue to do.


Keegan

 

[Shane Daly DP]

Thank you for proving my point Michael.

 

[Phil Holland]

I bought M also, means nothing, I now see that the old Red is dead and the new one is corporate in every sense.

Just remember. Being an M owner has placed you in priority to upgrade. Remember, upgrades haven't officially started yet. So your "feeling special feeling" remains intact. I don't exactly know what else you're looking for here.

 

[Brent Carter]

apparently Libatique, Bay, Fincher et al have all put hours and hours into the development according to the Red salesmen, and that's why they have been fast tracked and not because they are huge stars.. #bullshit

Shane, I have no trouble with anyone voicing their opinions. That is what REDUSER is for - opinions and information dissemination. What I do have an issue with is after attempting to clear up a misconception within an email exchange last night, having someone call me a liar. And call Jarred a liar (who originally stated how much help people like Fincher, Bay, etc all provide RED).

I ask a moderator to close this thread.

 

[Jarred Land]

Shane.. I don't remember you ever taking time out of your schedule to come sit down with us and give your input during the development of Dragon. In fact.. I don't remember ever hearing from you at all. The people that have dragons right now and have dragons in process or that I loan Dragons to until their upgrades can be done are the guys that have.. big names and small.

The guys that take the time to make the camera better for not only us but all you as well deserve a little love... and I don't really give a shit if you think that is fair or not...