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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon Update

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You can do 120fps in ArriRaw with the XT's.
 
Adam S said:
You can do 120fps in ArriRaw with the XT's.
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Ok, then I was wrong... but the rest is shit :)

Not to joke, but if you shot 120fps RAW uncompressed for a day then your DIT and post guys will start to talk about how fantastic r3d's are to work with...

I did post for a couple of commercials shot with the codex. And even if you only have like a 3 day 2 camera shoot. The amount of disc space and transfer times that demands is quite nuts.

And further more... be glad that you bought a cheap ass red camera, Some DP's that I know here in sweden decided to invest in some camera gear and they put their money on the codex recorder... about two weeks after they got it Alexa studio started to record full frame proress... and now the XT came out... I doubt that that thing will rent at all for any price in half a years time, still it was an investment bigger than a few epics...
 
Björn Benckert said:
Yes, the market is quite flooded with cameras. But talk to the guys that rent out alexas and F65's and see what they say... also ask them about costs and upgrade costs. Basically the cameras is no longer the selling point in any rental deal. Here in stockholm you get a free epic if you rent the rest of your gear at one of the major rental houses. And when I go to another local place they always have about 10 to 15 alexas on the shelf that is not rented out. (they also have a F65 since it came out that pretty much never been used, and small piles of epics and scarlets.)

These days most rental houses have huge warehouses filled with gear, usally they got more gear at home then out on jobs... Cameras are now no different, since they are actually so cheap, It's not like before, they do not cost like the rest of the gear combined, instead the cameras are about equal in cost as a decent light unit.

So if you look at it that way it's not so strange, it's like you bought one Arri sun and you are surprised it's not possible to rent it out.

Cameras will be rented together with the rest, magliners, lenses, lights, grip gear and such and there is far more players in that market today than it's ever been before so basically buying a camera to rent it out is really tough buissness. Basically you need a really good selling point to make people choose your camera, no matter if it's an Epic, Scarlet, Alexa, F65, or even black magic.

So far the workflow of the epic has not really landed well. But I think as soon as the XT cameras comes. The DP's want's to push the RAW button on the alexa XT, and as soon as they start to do that people will start to understand what a wonderful format r3d is... Arri raw is not to play with, it's heavy stuff, moves seriously slow, does not allow playback is a drag for post. Using both proress and Arri raw for offline and online is really not nice it involves keeping track of dual files etc etc. The same goes for the Sony cameras. Try play with the F65 material...
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I noticed this, too. The gear at rental houses is now within reach, so there is an increased number of owners in the field. For longer playing jobs, the idea of renting certain items does not necessarily make sense any more -- we might as well purchase. Sucks because I have friends at rental spots, but it is evolution.

Also as you mention Bjorn, I have noticed the biggest problem lies in the post workflow for indies, and productions needing quick turnaround without CC. As a RAW camera, the EPIC is data hungry, which equates to a pretty big impact on small budgets -- and it seems this is something people rarely consider. All that data has to live somewhere, and some "directors" want to leave the camera running through lunch breaks, and overnight -- just in case something happens while the set is shut down. :glare:

RAW isn't as much a "concern," as much as it is merely a consideration for those knowledgeable in the matter. Everyone else, it is definitely a "problem."
 
Eryc Tramonn said:
I noticed this, too. The gear at rental houses is now within reach, so there is an increased number of owners in the field. For longer playing jobs, the idea of renting certain items does not necessarily make sense any more -- we might as well purchase. Sucks because I have friends at rental spots, but it is evolution.

Also as you mention Bjorn, I have noticed the biggest problem lies in the post workflow for indies, and productions needing quick turnaround without CC. As a RAW camera, the EPIC is data hungry, which equates to a pretty big impact on small budgets -- and it seems this is something people rarely consider. All that data has to live somewhere, and some "directors" want to leave the camera running through lunch breaks, and overnight -- just in case something happens while the set is shut down. :glare:

RAW isn't as much a "concern," as much as it is merely a consideration for those knowledgeable in the matter. Everyone else, it is definitely a "problem."
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Epic RAW is not so data hungry if you compare to ARRI RAW. Shooting 1:6 and such make huge difference to raw uncompressed.
 
Dr. Sassi said:
Congratulations, having just ordered the Epic, the next "race" has already started. Keep going to keep us on the toes. ;o)(Weather here in L.A., clouds are gone, and temperatures are going up this week, the Dragon seems to breathe nicely, well done)
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Great job Jim. My Epic is approaching my front door and followed by the news of the fire-breathing Dragon! Can't wait..
 
Björn Benckert said:
Epic RAW is not so data hungry if you compare to ARRI RAW. Shooting 1:6 and such make huge difference to raw uncompressed.
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True, but it's all a very relative thing, I suppose -- just lost a job because the production was having trouble bearing the added expense. C'est la vie. :)
 
Björn Benckert said:
Yes, the market is quite flooded with cameras. But talk to the guys that rent out alexas and F65's and see what they say... also ask them about costs and upgrade costs. Basically the cameras is no longer the selling point in any rental deal. Here in stockholm you get a free epic if you rent the rest of your gear at one of the major rental houses. And when I go to another local place they always have about 10 to 15 alexas on the shelf that is not rented out. (they also have a F65 since it came out that pretty much never been used, and small piles of epics and scarlets.)

These days most rental houses have huge warehouses filled with gear, usally they got more gear at home then out on jobs... Cameras are now no different, since they are actually so cheap, It's not like before, they do not cost like the rest of the gear combined, instead the cameras are about equal in cost as a decent light unit.

So if you look at it that way it's not so strange, it's like you bought one Arri sun and you are surprised it's not possible to rent it out.

Cameras will be rented together with the rest, magliners, lenses, lights, grip gear and such and there is far more players in that market today than it's ever been before so basically buying a camera to rent it out is really tough buissness. Basically you need a really good selling point to make people choose your camera, no matter if it's an Epic, Scarlet, Alexa, F65, or even black magic.

So far the workflow of the epic has not really landed well. But I think as soon as the XT cameras comes. The DP's want's to push the RAW button on the alexa XT, and as soon as they start to do that people will start to understand what a wonderful format r3d is... Arri raw is not to play with, it's heavy stuff, moves seriously slow, does not allow playback is a drag for post. And using a combo of proress and Arri raw for offline and online is really not a nice workflow it involves keeping track of dual files etc. And XT if i'm not wrong does not allow RAW high speed recording. About the same goes for the Sony cameras. Try play with the F65 material...The weight is quite amazing.
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Bjorn, i can understand if some rental house would drop price for camera. But to actually put it for free, it's unimaginable. Is it that bad ? But i think it depends on circumstances, the total invoice rather than individual components.

I dont know if this happen to your end, but i see more and more people buy EPIC or Scarlet without adequate or complete accessories to work with. They buy body and expected to rent the accessories only, even rods ! followed by red bricks, follow focus, mattebox, filters, tripod, etc. Pretty crazy. I have seen many productions went disaster just because the incompetent producer get cheap rental price epic or scarlet from someone individual he knows and the DP is pissed with what he has on set. Since the AC is so busy, he never has the time to check the camera, trusting the producer. Oh well...

For example, it happened to one of the shoot last year. The PH rented Scarlet from someone she knows. They brought basic accessories plus V-mount plate, 2 red bricks and 2 red volts :(. Amazing, they dont have the conversion cable 2B to 1B to able to use the v-mount plate in scarlet/epic. So at the end, they are left with 2 red-volts to work with and they never shot anything. 3 hours behind schedule, the producer and the unit has to get other camera. Blaming games happened almost immediately. It's really crazy. What on earth does this guy thinking, the person who rent the scarlet. He doesnt seems to understand anything, except browsing and see people said that the camera is cool.

R
 
Björn Benckert said:
Yes, the market is quite flooded with cameras. But talk to the guys that rent out alexas and F65's and see what they say... also ask them about costs and upgrade costs. Basically the cameras is no longer the selling point in any rental deal. Here in stockholm you get a free epic if you rent the rest of your gear at one of the major rental houses. And when I go to another local place they always have about 10 to 15 alexas on the shelf that is not rented out. (they also have a F65 since it came out that pretty much never been used, and small piles of epics and scarlets.)

These days most rental houses have huge warehouses filled with gear, usally they got more gear at home then out on jobs... Cameras are now no different, since they are actually so cheap, It's not like before, they do not cost like the rest of the gear combined, instead the cameras are about equal in cost as a decent light unit.

So if you look at it that way it's not so strange, it's like you bought one Arri sun and you are surprised it's not possible to rent it out.

Cameras will be rented together with the rest, magliners, lenses, lights, grip gear and such and there is far more players in that market today than it's ever been before so basically buying a camera to rent it out is really tough buissness. Basically you need a really good selling point to make people choose your camera, no matter if it's an Epic, Scarlet, Alexa, F65, or even black magic.

So far the workflow of the epic has not really landed well. But I think as soon as the XT cameras comes. The DP's want's to push the RAW button on the alexa XT, and as soon as they start to do that people will start to understand what a wonderful format r3d is... Arri raw is not to play with, it's heavy stuff, moves seriously slow, does not allow playback is a drag for post. And using a combo of proress and Arri raw for offline and online is really not a nice workflow it involves keeping track of dual files etc. And XT if i'm not wrong does not allow RAW high speed recording. About the same goes for the Sony cameras. Try play with the F65 material...The weight is quite amazing.
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Very intelligent post.
 
Until a major advancement in technology (a Depth channel maybe?), I see a camera plateau that the Dragon is the corner of leading to a rather flat line. Yes cameras will get more megapixels, become faster, smaller, cheaper and easier to use. But if all Jim's bragging about the Dragon is true (which I have faith it is), then anything above and beyond the Dragon (unless you are talking Imax, which you are beyond my league) is just minor improvement hitting on the border of human limitation.

The MX was almost there, and is a more than capable, with the biggest flaw being sensitivity which was still more than adequate. Yes the Alexa topped it's dynamic range and had beautiful highlight roll offs. Some complained about the work flow of the RED, but I always saw the RAW as a major major plus.

Which brings us back to the Dragon, RED has taken note on what the market wants and what it is willing to pay. Anything beyond 6K 16+ stops of Dynamic Range (how many can you get with HDRx?), 2000 native ISO, and 100 fps is just going to be nitpicking. It is already hard enough to notice the differences between good cameras now.

But then again, never underestimate what RED has up their sleeve!
 
I fully agree Christian... even higher frame rates, though super cool, are relatively niche. 96FPS is the top end ideal for what I do. After Dragon and its 16-17 stops of DR, I would need a REALLY REALLY good reason to upgrade to something else. My future expenditures will be on better lights and better grip gear (like the MoVI).
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
Latitude of 65mm film is still unbeatable just to quote Ron Fricke Director and Cinematographer of Baraka and Samsara.
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I'm going out on a limb here, but with the combined dynamic range and resolution with the flexibility of high frame rates in a small package as well as having access to a larger format sensor compared to S35 filmmakers like Ron are going to be very excited about Dragon.

I'm only going out on a limb as I haven't used Dragon yet to capture a single image, but on paper that's some of what's getting me excited.
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
Latitude of 65mm film is still unbeatable just to quote Ron Fricke Director and Cinematographer of Baraka and Samsara...
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As much as I respect Ron as a cinematographer - statements like this can be very biased. Size of the actual frame has no effect on dynamic range. It helps with sensitivity, as more light can be directed at it, but it doesn't affect the DR. For that you need a special emulsion. IMHO, given the published specs of the Dragon - the DR will exceed any film stock available for motion picture photography...

What we need is proper tests under controled conditions, such as it has been done with 35mm - these test showed that even the stocks with the widest DR did not exceed 14 stops. Most stocks were well bellow that...

:sifone: Peter
 
Sanjin Jukic said:
Latitude of 65mm film is still unbeatable just to quote Ron Fricke Director and Cinematographer of Baraka and Samsara.

Digital sucks with a colour shift (skin tones) that was introduced by Arri D-21 and it continues to the present!

Just have a look at the latest Martin Scorsese movie "The Wolf of Wall Street" shot mostly on overhyped Alexa.

Also very glad that Dragon is finally near...!!!
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Completely agree with "The Wolf of Wall Street" skin tones. Seen that on a lot of digital productions. Clearly something to amend in the digital world!
 
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