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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Dragon Update

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Matt Ryan said:
Yeah I get that the F65 is superior, I'm just saying if the F5/55 clipped harder than the Epic then something is off slightly. Those cameras give you 2 stops more than the Epic, so they shouldn't roll off harder and if they do maybe he was shooting in XAVC and not RAW.
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I'm not disagreeing with you. The F5/55 should roll of nicely because of the extra stops, but it also wouldn't surprise me if they didn't...to protect the F65. There's also the possibility that the F5/55 may feature some kind of "compromise" - ie higher sensitivity (native ISO) at the expense of some roll off behaviour.

Who knows.

I want to see real world examples.
 
There seems to be quite a disdain for artists and craftsmen on this website...Ive never seen so many people put down people that have spent their lives learning and mastering a craft.

Gavin Greenwalt said:
I have no idea what your point is. I don't trust Deakin's ability to write code. But any developer off the street can pretty easily handle the technical challenges of writing code--an experienced DP's eye though is far more unique and valuable to color science than knowing what bit depth the LUT is encoded in. If it looks bad it looks bad. Knowing the math on why it looks bad doesn't factor into the equation. I don't expect a painter to understand the chemistry behind a pigment--but if it doesn't mix well it doesn't mix well regardless of the chemistry behind the problem.
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Matt Ryan said:
Don't get me wrong, I'm a so called RED fanboy (you can ask my friends, they call me the RED guy)..
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Red_Guy_300-1-.gif


http://cowandchicken.wikia.com/wiki/Red_Guy
:-)
 
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Paul Harb said:
There seems to be quite a disdain for artists and craftsmen on this website...Ive never seen so many people put down people that have spent their lives learning and mastering a craft.
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Haha. Welcome to the film industry -- everyone's a critic around here. Lot of tests are shot...but there is definitely a dearth of indie content showcased. Am I perfect? Hell no. I voice plenty of opinions, too. But I completely hear what you are saying and agree.

And am I saying there is no creative content here? No, definitely not. However there seems to be far more "tests." Guess that is to be expected given the nature of the forum, but I feel we're at a place where the camera is FAR beyond stable. There should be more threads showcasing work and discussing how it could be refined. I'm not an engineer...although we all are compared to our filmmaking predecessors...but it seems that many of the artists here get too caught in tech details to the detriment of producing stories.

The easy way I cope -- ignore the noise and shoot. If I don't have cash for Master Primes, I'll be damned if having to acquire with Rokinons is going to stop me. But it would for some. I'm of the mind set that we all have to work to the best of our ability within our surrounding creative and technical constraints. What else is there?

Best,

Eryc
 
Elsie N said:
I agree that artists have an eye far superior to the average person in the street and I also agree that very few can or are willing to learn all that's necessary to understand why. But if Deakins is a colorist (they actually do have the connection for seeing a difference AND knowing why, technically speaking) as well as a DP, I could understand his bias. Otherwise, I see it as being self-important.

He obviously doesn't have to worry about budget and can make personal choices that likely cost more to create.

Hooray for him... but he won't be working on any of my movies. '-) '-) '-)
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Mr. Deakins supervises color in all films he shoots, and was the first to do so in a modern DI process, for O Brother. And it isn't as though his opinion about Alexa vs Red color is all that unique. I think it's hardly a revalation.
 
Brant Hadfield said:
Mr. Deakins supervises color in all films he shoots, and was the first to do so in a modern DI process, for O Brother. And it isn't as though his opinion about Alexa vs Red color is all that unique. I think it's hardly a revalation.
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All I'm sayin' is RED is good enough for Peter Jackson, Fincher and Steven Soderberg et al... and they aren't exactly chopped liver.
 
Over the years Kodak and Fuji made very different looking film stocks as well as different stocks of their own adapting new technology as they went along. Cinematographers had their favourite stocks, a look they liked, a look they were hired to achieve. Its no different now with the many different cameras , lenses and post treatment. Just tools and a means to the vision.
 
Elsie N said:
All I'm sayin' is RED is good enough for Peter Jackson, Fincher and Steven Soderberg et al... and they aren't exactly chopped liver.
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I own and shoot on a Rec Scarlet. I really enjoy the camera, and get great images, and get even better color using Film Convert than I can any other way. It's the best camera that I can afford, or put more precisely, the best I can justify economically at the moment. If I could afford the Alexa, I would own it. That said, I am very excited about Dragon, and have high hopes. For Red, I think they have quite a bit more riding on that sensor than perhaps has been discussed here. They have to get it right. The competition is getting strong.
 
Brant Hadfield said:
I own and shoot on a Rec Scarlet. I really enjoy the camera, and get great images, and get even better color using Film Convert than I can any other way. It's the best camera that I can afford, or put more precisely, the best I can justify economically at the moment. If I could afford the Alexa, I would own it. That said, I am very excited about Dragon, and have high hopes. For Red, I think they have quite a bit more riding on that sensor than perhaps has been discussed here. They have to get it right. The competition is getting strong.
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I've got two RED Epics in line to be Dragonized. The only way I'll ever shoot anything else is when they take the Epics from my cold dead hands... and put something else in them and turn them on remotely. '-)
 
Brant Hadfield said:
For Red, I think they have quite a bit more riding on that sensor than perhaps has been discussed here. They have to get it right. The competition is getting strong.
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Brent, I think that you have hit the nail on the head. I think that Red should have redesigned the epic altogether and given us what we have been asking for, for years (prores, xlrs, nd's, ability to use an evf and a monitor at the same time etc...). The camera was obviously designed to be a 3d camera and for that it worked very well but 3d is going away and sony has made a camera that fulfills many wish lists. Sony have taken over the 4k cheerleading and no amount of "but I've got 6k" statements will affect their sales. The sensor has to have the dynamic range that was promised and the camera has to be stable, no weird glitches on the touchscreen and no screaming fans. I love my epic and I've shot a lot of jobs with it and made a lot of money with it but the wolves are at red's door.

Once people start talking shit about Roger Deakins and how he doesn't know what he is doing, then I have to wonder just how delusional you all are.
 
Elsie N said:
All I'm sayin' is RED is good enough for Peter Jackson, Fincher and Steven Soderberg et al... and they aren't exactly chopped liver.
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:)

Exactly. Everything else is academic. Use the tool. As far as I'm concerned, RED forged the indie holy grail. It is great that a handful of independent-minded, "Hollywood" interlopers added cachet to the system, but I would be shooting this system with or without any "celeb" endorsement. There was a time when I was completely camera agnostic, but I can't really say that anymore. And I am not ashamed to admit that.

Why? Simple -- RED earned it. Let critics pixel peep and concern themselves with minutiae -- that's fine -- they are free to do that.

Everyone is free to shoot whatever they prefer, and suits their job. Only thing is, they're making a mistake if their preference is not RED. ;)
 
Elsie N said:
I've got two RED Epics in line to be Dragonized. The only way I'll ever shoot anything else is when they take the Epics from my cold dead hands... and put something else in them and turn them on remotely. '-)
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Hahaha. I like you, Elsie. Bravo.
 
Shane Kelly said:
Brent, I think that you have hit the nail on the head. I think that Red should have redesigned the epic altogether and given us what we have been asking for, for years (prores, xlrs, nd's, ability to use an evf and a monitor at the same time etc...). The camera was obviously designed to be a 3d camera and for that it worked very well but 3d is going away and sony has made a camera that fulfills many wish lists. Sony have taken over the 4k cheerleading and no amount of "but I've got 6k" statements will affect their sales. The sensor has to have the dynamic range that was promised and the camera has to be stable, no weird glitches on the touchscreen and no screaming fans. I love my epic and I've shot a lot of jobs with it and made a lot of money with it but the wolves are at red's door.

Once people start talking shit about Roger Deakins and how he doesn't know what he is doing, then I have to wonder just how delusional you all are.
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I would never disrespect my cinematic elders -- well, unless it's that chump D.W. Griffith...we don't see eye to eye. He makes me wish I had a proper time machine, so I could special deliver a can of Whoop Ass to him. My comments, though a part of this convo, were not directed at Mr. Deakins. I have the utmost respect for him, and I support his right to choose whatever he likes, qualified or not.

I also hear what you're saying Shane, and to a degree I hate to think you could be correct. Sony's bottomless marketing engine will sell whatever FUD, misinformation, disinformation and lies that it chooses on a broad scale -- it realizes the public believes whatever it reads first. He who is the most visible -- wins. I think we can all agree that the average consumer is not terribly savvy, nor attempting to operate in the high-stakes environment of professional content creation. No, they have real jobs. Haha. Cameras are a hobby for them.

That's why I have always stated RED should be more concerned with the indie. Obviously, investment needs to be recouped from financially solvent entities such as studio players, but indies are where you may find a larger degree of true loyalty than capital. It's a tough place to be: appeal to the studio system to secure a speedy ROI, or stick close to the little guy and give him capability at a price he would not have otherwise. Personally, I think RDC is doing an excellent job of managing both those aspects.

Jim is NOT in this for quick cash. He's doing this because he likes it, and he wants to share the capability with others. Do things get muddled at times? Yes, and I think that is one of the reasons he often stops himself from posting at first blush. And I think that is something that we forget at times. Would Jim like to produce dividends from his innovations, of course he would. But everything I have PERSONALLY WITNESSED speaks to that being of secondary concern. This gentleman is having fun creating something he wants to see happen, he relishes being a wee bit disruptive (hehehe), and he actually wants to enrich others.

Rather than prognosticate over the death of this or that, we should be rallying to find solutions. To a large degree, the RED was a crowd-sourced product, similar to the Rally Fighter, so I fail to see how it is not what we were asking for. Does it have shortcomings? Yes, but what doesn't? There are workarounds for every "issue" I have encountered, and honestly, the issues are not really "issues."

Could I afford anything remotely comparable? HELL NO. I have a dream machine sitting next to me -- right now. Not only am I immensely grateful for it, but I intend to shoot the best things I can with it, and fill up some distribution channel with my worldview before I leave it. I think that is the key. This camera means vastly different things to those who are lucky enough to use it.

We have unlimited spools of 35mm film and people are still complaining. ??? That fact alone is literally worth its weight in celluloid.
 
Shane Kelly said:
Brent, I think that you have hit the nail on the head. I think that Red should have redesigned the epic altogether and given us what we have been asking for, for years (prores, xlrs, nd's, ability to use an evf and a monitor at the same time etc...). The camera was obviously designed to be a 3d camera and for that it worked very well but 3d is going away and sony has made a camera that fulfills many wish lists. Sony have taken over the 4k cheerleading and no amount of "but I've got 6k" statements will affect their sales. The sensor has to have the dynamic range that was promised and the camera has to be stable, no weird glitches on the touchscreen and no screaming fans. I love my epic and I've shot a lot of jobs with it and made a lot of money with it but the wolves are at red's door.

Once people start talking shit about Roger Deakins and how he doesn't know what he is doing, then I have to wonder just how delusional you all are.
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Well if I hit the nail on the head, I am not sure that was the nail I was aiming for. I don't really know of the validity of what you're saying there, except certainly the last sentence, which in my opinion, is self evident. I suppose there is no accounting for taste, as they say.
 
One more thought. Don't get me wrong. I really do want Red and Dragon to succeed. To achieve what seems impossible, which is to deliver the technology and clearly beat Arri with aesthetic. Make those who love the Alexa decide on the merit of the quality of the image alone, to use the Red. Mr. Deakins did leave the door open, somewhat, saying that though he would not wish to shoot without an optical viewfinder, if a camera delivered dramatically higher DR and the aesthetic were to his liking, he would relent and use a viewfinder and go without the optical. And I am not saying we need any particular DP to sign off on a camera in order to like it. I love my Scarlet. I am just saying it would be a big win. I hope it happens.
 
Brant Hadfield said:
One more thought. Don't get me wrong. I really do want Red and Dragon to succeed. To achieve what seems impossible, which is to deliver the technology and clearly beat Arri with aesthetic. Make those who love the Alexa decide on the merit of the quality of the image alone, to use the Red. Mr. Deakins did leave the door open, somewhat, saying that though he would not wish to shoot without an optical viewfinder, if a camera delivered dramatically higher DR and the aesthetic were to his liking, he would relent and use a viewfinder and go without the optical. And I am not saying we need any particular DP to sign off on a camera in order to like it. I love my Scarlet. I am just saying it would be a big win. I hope it happens.
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Your Deakins worship is almost as unbearable as my (to some) RED camera worship. '-)
 
Elsie N said:
Your Deakins worship is almost as unbearable as my (to some) RED camera worship. '-)
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Almost. But not quite, to be sure.

Come on, if Deakins were to suddenly start shooting on an Epic, it would probably be ASC magazine cover-worthy. It'd be a big deal. And the Fan Boys here would go completely ape-$@/!. It's true.
 
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