alexa M naming epic M ripp off?

[Bill Anderson]

Yes, and she fell to a revolution. ( :

Marx? No, not Groucho.

 

[Stuart English]

The name isn't too big of a deal. What's interesting was that when I was at the Arri booth, I asked what "M" stood for. They said "M stands for 'Modular', as we are enabling people to take the modular approach by allowing people to go as small as they want, or as big as they want."

Well the head + tail version is here. Makes the head smaller I guess. Head is quoted to be about 5lbs and about the size of an EPIC.

As Mike has commented, Sony has offered such a split camera head / recorder system for 3D rigs in the past.

So an EPIC 3D rig has advantage in weight, size and resolution to name three.

 

[Tim Hole]

I think its obvious that on the one side they are definitely following RED's lead, however its blatantly designed with 3D in mind. 'M' stands for Modular. I know that 'M' is synonymous with RED name but they are named M for different reasons. In the EPIC its 'M' Machined. Was the 'M' sensor labelled as such for any reason (I haven't a clue) but it was pre-modular wasn't it. Although RED have always kind of had this build out mentality from the inner body to outer cage. But the M sensor did not relate to Modular. RED's new lines are completely designed around modularity in such an ingenious way. Arri have done little but separate the head from the body for 3D work as far as I am concerned.

 

[Peter Matthes]

Everybody's getting into the game!

 

[Bill Anderson]

It's red, and it's M, what a rip off.
What are those two funny looking wheels on top of the camera for?

 

[Peter Matthes]

It's red, and it's M, what a rip off.
What are those two funny looking wheels on top of the camera for?

Love it. :lol: :w00t: :lol:

 

[Stephen Williams]

Well the head + tail version is here. Makes the head smaller I guess. As Mike has commented, Sony has offered such a system for 3D before.

Sony had a version of the BVP 7 with a removable head (BVP T7), were talking 25 years ago, it's really not a new concept at all.

 

[Yone Santana]

Both companies are our to make money.

ARRI might be a great camera manufacturer but they are not pushing the limits as far as red goes. Alexa-M is just a name, trying to catch up with red in terms of performance is just something that ARRI is not doing so they are pushing the bubble in other directions. I won't say its the right direction as at least RED are preparing a series of cameras that suit what professionals need and remember the COST of each Epic in comparison.

Smaller in RED's case is a whole camera while the Alexa-M is just the recording head.

 

[M Most]

Both companies are our to make money.

ARRI might be a great camera manufacturer but they are not pushing the limits as far as red goes. Alexa-M is just a name, trying to catch up with red in terms of performance is just something that ARRI is not doing so they are pushing the bubble in other directions.

I would put that a little differently. They are not pushing the limits as far as Red in terms of resolution, but they are concentrating on other areas, such as user friendliness, familiarity to film trained crews, and dynamic range/image quality. For some productions, particularly those destined for television, these are areas that are very appealing, and that is where Alexa has achieved most of its success (it is the dominant camera for television pilots this pilot season). For features, the resolution superiority and small form factor of Epic is very compelling, particularly in 3D productions, and the time available to turn around both dailies and the final product is generally greater, so the simplicity involved with using things like ProRes recording is more than offset by the other factors.

 

[Stephen Williams]

professionals need and remember the COST of each Epic in comparison.

The only Epic available costs $58,000, thats not that different to Alexa.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

When I originally heard about the new Alex-M, I just assumed it was short for Alexa Mini. With all due respect, we should probably worry less about camera names and more about how they can be used in the real world. Anybody that is out there working in camera departments on movies, tv shows, commercials, etc. knows that all kinds of cameras are being used, at every level. I truly believe that's it's important to keep an open mind about these various camera systems because it's very possible you will end up working with one of them at some point unless you work in a closed environment where you have complete control over what camera is used. For example, yesterday I was shooting with an F3 on a job. It may not be the best camera ever made, but it was the one we were using, the one I was getting paid to use.

It's hard for threads like these to not go down a bad road. Not sure there is much to be gained, no offense to Kaya who is a great poster. It's just there's a lot more potential for this forum than topics like this which naturally turn somewhat ugly. Think about all of the things that can be discussed that actually contribute to all of us expanding our knowledge, such as lighting techniques, how to get the best picture and sound quality from your RED sensor, post production techniques, real world workflows, video samples of people's work, etc. All of this other stuff, including some of the ranting about NAB just seems like noise to me. If this is supposed to be one of the best digital cinema filmmaking resources, I think there is a responsibility on the part of the users to hold it to a higher standard.

 

[Michael Hastings]

Sony had a version of the BVP 7 with a removable head (BVP T7), were talking 25 years ago, it's really not a new concept at all.

I have a brand new one of those sitting in a closet somewhere

Heinlein used say: "when it's time to railroad, people railroad" meaning when a mix of technologies reaches a certain point the next step of development is inevitable, if not by one group then another.

Red has certainly had a significant influence on pricing and features, but video enabled dSLRs were a natural evolution of the video enabled point and shoots that were around for years, and something like Alexa was an inevitable development from the D20; 4K cameras were an inevitable development given the 4K DCI spec and 4K projectors that preceded RED.

And none of that diminishes RED's real accomplishments. Epic-M is a great camera and if RED can actually deliver stage 2,3,4 Epics reasonably soon it is an incredible price performance breakthrough.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

The only Epic available costs $58,000, thats not that different to Alexa.

I'd take a look at what the Epic-M owners get in their $58K pack - it's a lot more than just the body.

Graeme

 

[Ketch Rossi]

He he Grame, you beat me to it...

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Carsten, that's a fair assessment - even if you add a prores box to the Epic it's still smaller and lighter, and won't have the first 5 frames corruption issue either (go check the Alexa firmware's bug list for info on that). When I fired up the Epic with the new firmware for the first time, I found it incredibly easy to use with the simple touch-screen menu system, and because it's shooting RAW, the only real settings to worry about are the project settings. After carrying an Epic and shooting hand-held with one, there's no way you'll ever get me using a bigger camera ever again.

Graeme

 

[shashbugu]

For some productions, particularly those destined for television, these are areas that are very appealing, and that is where Alexa has achieved most of its success (it is the dominant camera for television pilots this pilot season). For features, the resolution superiority and small form factor of Epic is very compelling, particularly in 3D productions, and the time available to turn around both dailies and the final product is generally greater, so the simplicity involved with using things like ProRes recording is more than offset by the other factors.

The only reason why Epics are not used on episodics is because they just not available readily during the pitch prix for this season. There's no way to budget or create a workflow unless you can be assured of the equipment's availability.

Lets have this conversation same time next year.

 

[M Most]

Redcode is also not uncompressed. Assuming one attaches any advantage to uncompressed information (and I'm not saying they should) that is not a direct comparison. If you're comparing Alexa's uncompressed RAW recording to Epic's compressed RAW recording, that's probably a fair comparison, and it's probably what you meant.

You seem to be talking solely about tech. I'm talking about images, and the images from Epic and Alexa are, well, different, even ignoring resolution. Some prefer one, others prefer the other, and still others make their preference on the needs of the particular story being told or the particular locations being photographed. Both are great products, but to imply that the only differences between them are technical ones - or financial ones, for that matter - is to not look at them the way a cinematographer should and, in general, must.

 

[Deanan]

Not totally sure what's included but Abelcine has an Alexa kit (VF, Prores, 5 SxS cards) for just under $80,000. No Arri Raw I believe.

Just information for the purpose of reality check.

And on Epic, higher frame rates and anamorphic desqueeze aren't a paid upgrade.

 

[M Most]

If you want to have the conversation next year, that's fine. Be prepared for the conversation to include, if not be centered around, the F65.

Television pilots are a unique beast. Each of the last 3 years - ever since the SAG nonsense largely brought an end to using film on these shows - there has been a "camera of the year," the one camera that gets "buzz" and ends up being the defacto dominant choice. Two years ago that was the F35, with the D20 following far behind. Last year it was Red and the F35 again. This year it's Alexa. Next year, who knows? Maybe Epic. Maybe Scarlet. Maybe Alexa Plus. Maybe F65. Your guess is as good as anybody's.

 

[Deanan]

If you want to have the conversation next year, that's fine. Be prepared for the conversation to include, if not be centered around, the F65.

Television pilots are a unique beast. Each of the last 3 years - ever since the SAG nonsense largely brought an end to using film on these shows - there has been a "camera of the year," the one camera that gets "buzz" and ends up being the defacto dominant choice. Two years ago that was the F35, with the D20 following far behind. Last year it was Red and the F35 again. This year it's Alexa. Next year, who knows? Maybe Epic. Maybe Scarlet. Maybe Alexa Plus. Maybe F65. Your guess is as good as anybody's.

Or GoPro when everything is a reality show