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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

First Look - Schneider Xenon FF-Prime Lenses

$4k is a wonderful, perfect price for such a lens. But that has to be a typo, right? Their own S35 Cine-Xenars are twice that, and Panchros are even more! Even the CP.2's are more than that! I know Phil's listed a few ways that the Xenon's are a bit "downmarket" from the Cine-Xenars, but still...
 
Game Changer comes to mind. The question really becomes, will producers rent them over "Zeiss" Cp.2's
 
Thomas Koch said:
Game Changer comes to mind. The question really becomes, will producers rent them over "Zeiss" Cp.2's
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I agree, these lenses could be a game changer. But so could Brian's "sleeves".

If I can add his "sleeves" to be modded Contax set (for only $500 each), I'll have similar functionality to these Schneiders (good enough for an "in-house" set anyway), at a very attractive price.

It's a great time to be in our business.
 
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  • #47
Clayton Burkhart said:
The real question is why producers no longer allow DP's to chose the right lenses for the job.
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I'm hearing a lot of this in regards to who has the final say on which camera or which glass can be used on a production. Now, you guys know I prefer shooting on Red, but honestly it's never even been a question that's come up for me. Most of my clients want me to use the tools I can produce quality results with and trust me to make the right decision based on what's needed. Of course if it's a lens rental cost thing I get that.

I have seen a producer go in and tell a DP that "we're not shooting anamorphic" due to the cost of glass and the different workflow in post. I'm curious to learn more those situations where producers make that creative decision that pretty much directly effects the look and day to day workflow on a project.

For instance, I'd likely shoot on Red Pro Primes over CP.2 nearly every day of the week at the moment. Rental cost should be in the same ball park and you get a full consistent set. If I was trying to make really light weight rigs, than the CP.2 lenses might be more of what I'm after.


Nick Morrison said:
If I can add his "sleeves" to be modded Contax set (for only $500 each), I'll have similar functionality to these Schneiders (good enough for an "in-house" set anyway), at a very attractive price.
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I think sleeves are great, but the big issue about still glass in general for me at this point is that bloody image shift and less precise pull. Image shift can be stabilized in post, but stabilization can't do a damn thing about induced motion blur, and if you're shooting at 1/48-1/60th you can see. Especially on locked off pulls.

At $4K a lens and FF35 coverage these Schneider Xenon FF-Primes are pretty hard to ignore. I know a lot of folks have been waiting for glass just like this. Anybody shooting Dragon Full 6K or even a 5D would find these attractive at an extremely low cost.

Heh. I don't plan on not using my still glass in the future, but I know their issues because I face them nearly on a daily basis and that's when I have to rent proper glass.
 
Phil Holland said:
I think sleeves are great, but the big issue about still glass in general for me at this point is that bloody image shift and less precise pull. Image shift can be stabilized in post, but stabilization can't do a damn thing about induced motion blur, and if you're shooting at 1/48-1/60th you can see. Especially on locked off pulls.
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I hear you. I think these Schneiders look amazing. The only advantage to me of a large modded stills collection is the amount of options it gives you. I work in promo, and I need every shoot to look different. To me, having 12+ matching focal lengths gives me an incredible scope: 16, 18, 21, 25, 28, 35, 50, 60, 85, 100, 135, 180, 200, 300, etc. I usually do promo interviews and b-roll, and shoots can easily use 3 to 4 cameras (say when interviewing two talent at once). Even having matching portrait primes is a plus: 2 x 50mm, 2 x 85mm.

That being said, we're almost always locked off on sticks, doing interviews and b-roll. So we are not stressing the image that much.

For anything more mobile and focus-driven, these Schneiders look like a great solution.
 
Phil Holland said:
At $4K a lens and FF35 coverage these Schneider Xenon FF-Primes are pretty hard to ignore. I know a lot of folks have been waiting for glass just like this.
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You said it! (Plus light weight and uniform dimensions.)
Thanks for the excellent (as always) and thoughtful (as always) review. I've been waiting for someone to have hands-on, pre-NAB. This confirms my hopes for the Xenons. A bit disturbed by the CA on the rack focus with the 35. Did you see that clean up by 2.8? I know they're prototypes, but that's quite a bit more than I'd expect to see on a modern prime.

Thanks for all the insightful (and BS-free) contributions to the forum. I've been reading you for quite a while now.
 
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  • #53
Scott Auerbach said:
A bit disturbed by the CA on the rack focus with the 35. Did you see that clean up by 2.8? I know they're prototypes, but that's quite a bit more than I'd expect to see on a modern prime.

Thanks for all the insightful (and BS-free) contributions to the forum. I've been reading you for quite a while now.
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Based on my conversations with the folks at Schneider I'm pretty confident that CA and bloom was due to coatings weirdness. These prototypes were built for NAB and there's a still a bit of work to be done. From what I can tell that means tightening up the coatings and mechanics. I played with the Xenon FF-Primes in PL mount that they had at NAB and the PL 75mm had a smoother action to it than the EF prototype.

Over the next few months Schneider will work out the kinks. They have a lot to gain by doing it too. I wrote this up and gave them a ton of feedback on the glass as did a few others. Hopefully once they get closer to the production run I'll have a chance to check them out again. The important things to me are: no image shift, solid resolving power, proper cinema mechanics, uniform size, and fairly compact size.

Once the new coatings are worked out I think these will provide a look somewhere in between classic and modern characteristics. But, we'll have to wait and see. I do like their uniqueness though.


Cheers and thanks for that. You'll never get BS from me. I'm a shooter and I'm out there busting my ass just like everybody else here. Sharing information and results from experiments helps all of our shots look better. Good for Redusers and all those who shoot on Red or desire to. At least that's how I see things, I could be crazy though.
 
Thanks again Phil. I was surprised at the CA when fully open of the 75mm they had at NAB. I'm hoping this was due to being a prototype still. But I must say, the Sony PL primes were pretty nice, but way more heavy. Almost felt like a slightly smaller red prime.
 
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  • #55
Bob Gundu said:
Thanks again Phil. I was surprised at the CA when fully open of the 75mm they had at NAB. I'm hoping this was due to being a prototype still. But I must say, the Sony PL primes were pretty nice, but way more heavy. Almost felt like a slightly smaller red prime.
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Played with those Sony lenses. They're interesting. I need to look at coverage and actually shoot with them, but I agree, they are pretty nice. It's the best set of motion glass Sony's made for sure. And the price is decent too.

Most companies don't show prototype glass and there's good reason for that. However, if it can be understood that those lenses are a work in progress and Schneider is basically informing potential costumers with what they have to offer later this year. Getting them on the floor at NAB and in hands of folks like me and Matt Duclos gives them invaluable feedback on what is going in the right direction and what could be better. I try to run any glass through realistic production use scenarios while doing some of the standard technical tests. In reality once image quality is all evaluated I like to "work" with the lenses and act out about a week of shooting via various pulls and some stress applied to the lens itself. Basic stress test stuff really. That's what we need to know at the end of the day.

The sets that were on the floor at NAB are literally the only lenses in the world at the moment. Once they get shipped back over to Germany the guys in the lab can get back to work and start problem solving.
 
Bob Gundu said:
Thanks again Phil. I was surprised at the CA when fully open of the 75mm they had at NAB. I'm hoping this was due to being a prototype still. But I must say, the Sony PL primes were pretty nice, but way more heavy. Almost felt like a slightly smaller red prime.
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Ditto. I was with Bob when we checked out these lenses and I was frankly extremely dissapointed with the wide open performance of the 75 on the Epic they had on display. Wide open you could clearly see very bad CA performance and an extremely soft image... felt more like the lens was at T1.3 than it was at T2, which shocked me quite a bit.

Nonetheless, these are prototypes. If the image on the 75 was anywhere near actually being fully completed... they still have quite a bit of work on their hands. I did like the handling and the general feel of the primes however. Their performance needs to improve if they want to compete with Canon CN-E's or Zeiss CP.2's, because frankly the other two would wipe the floor... the Xenon's are nowhere NEAR where they should be... especially being slower.

The Sony's were a surprise. Very sharp and contrasty wide open. A good heft to them as theyre similar to RPP's in construction, but I believe they only cover S35 in terms of image circle. A shame really.
 
HI Phil. Thanks for the replies as always. A question about preference really. Which mount would you prefer. Ef mount so that you can work with the other canon glass as well or would you go to pl and build a set of xenons. I know you can switch mounts and everything but I don't like doing that on the field. At home is cool on a clean desk but I wouldnt do it outside. So it's still one mount on the field. I would appreciate your thoughts.

And another question not in context really. Is it ok to swtich lenses with the camera on. I find that when using primes especially I get asked to switch focal lenghts quite a lot. Do I have to power down all the time? Or is no harm done by 'hot swapping lenses'. It's been asked before and it seems there are mixed feelings about the matter.

Appreciate the input as always
 
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Kirk.Attard said:
HI Phil. Thanks for the replies as always. A question about preference really. Which mount would you prefer. Ef mount so that you can work with the other canon glass as well or would you go to pl and build a set of xenons.

And another question not in context really. Is it ok to swtich lenses with the camera on. I find that when using primes especially I get asked to switch focal lenghts quite a lot. Do I have to power down all the time? Or is no harm done by 'hot swapping lenses'. It's been asked before and it seems there are mixed feelings about the matter.

Appreciate the input as always
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I use both EF and PL glass. I'll be getting my Xenon FF-Primes with the PL mount however. It's just a better solution for cinema use.

It is okay to switch lenses while the camera is on. The sensor itself is protected by the OLPF. Some folks are worried about static charge and all that attracting dust. I haven't found any issues. I will use a dry blower sometimes if I feel I'm in a space with particles that can fly in there. Anytime I have the lens off the camera, whether it's powered or not, I cover the mount. That's been standard practice in the industry for years.

In particular always inspect the rear element of an lens you put on the camera, the front can be cleaned after the fact, but if there's dust or anything on the rear it could travel around in there.

I try to clean my caps after each shoot. I know a lot of people don't do that.
 
Hey Phil, thanks for your valuable input on these lenses. Is there any sort of pre-order list one can join?
 
Yes interested in pre ordering the lenses as well. I think I'll get the ef version to start with then once I have the whole set switch to pl. I like the simplicity of switching lenses with pl mount. If there is no user interchangable mount i'll go for pl

Thanks for clearing the switching lenses issues.
 
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