EPIC FAN NOISE - HEARTBREAKING DURING INTERVIEW

[Max M.]

I think to put it simply, Scarlet and Epic are the greatest fiction cameras ever made. The best to have on set, where no one actually cares about the standby fan noise. They are also good for some documentary work, but they aren't good when you need that more intimate interview. Maybe at this very moment, the RED team are busy trying to design an ingenious way to keep stand-by noise to a minimum, if required.

Not true, on a fiction set it's also really annoying to have so much loud sound when in standby, its not unworkable, totally not, but still is just plain annoying. In small locations with intimate scenes, it's annoying, because it a distractionfactor.

I just hope that red after reading this thread works on a possible solution.

 

[Lee Dashiell]

Hey Mike! If you really need some help fixing the piece I could help you. I'm pretty certain that I could remove the fan noise at 100% with Pro Tools. Someone in your area should be able to, but if you can't find anyone, I wouldn't mind. It's really not that much trouble.

 

[Dave Winder]

If any of your cameras are going to full speed fan automatically at 42C that is not correct. Please contact your rep, file a ticket and submit a log.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

If any of your cameras are going to full speed fan automatically at 42C that is not correct. Please contact your rep, file a ticket and submit a log.

Do you mean 42C for Core temp or Sensor temp?

If you mean sensor temp you'll have all your Epic customer filing a ticket ;-)

Pat

 

[Daniel Kunz]

Had a similar situation with the scarlet. The way this fan works is just wrong. I bet that the blades are really quiet, but they are just in front of a heatsink with very sharp edges , which makes the air whistle around and produces noise.
How about a liquid cooling upgrade, or even one where you can separate the Cooler from the body and have the pipes go to another room where sound isn't important?

I always prefer the Sony FS100 for interviews, because there is absolutely NO issue with sound whatsoever, even in a sauna

 

[Peter Stelzhammer]

Right now I'm in the situation where we often "fall back" to our RED One M on site for smaller Studio/Interview-stuff where we need good audio quality (with the EPIC ready but just not being used)... the RED One recording mode is silent enough (no fan running under normal temperature circumstances), I don't have to worry about the Mic's I use (phantom power available, line level available), I can use more Mic's without a dedicated mixer... to put it short it's just better suited for audio out of the box. And with studio setups and proper lighting (HMI) the picture still holds up to be used with a mixed timeline with EPIC footage (all 4K HD to Full HD downconvert).

I hope we'll get access to the pro audio module or at least a firmware with phantom power enabled pretty soon...
As of now in my opinion the DSMC system is better suited for scratch audio then for clean audio without external mixers.
(talking about "out of box" and with no real audio-experience, so maybe I'm wrong... that's just my conclusion from a few shoots without an dedicated sound guy)

 

[Marc Wielage]

Hey Mike! If you really need some help fixing the piece I could help you. I'm pretty certain that I could remove the fan noise at 100% with Pro Tools.

Pro Tools alone will not do it, but high-end plug-ins like iZotope, Cedar, and Waves DNS can help a great deal using a "fingerprint" of the noise pattern and then trying to surgically slice it out of the dialog.

The problem is, removing fan noise will inevitably cause artifacts. It's not a perfect solution. Often, a combination of processes has to be used, rather than trying to do it in one fell swoop.

Ironically, all the noise reduction processes work best when there's only a little noise to get rid of. The more noise there is... the more artifacts you wind up with. There's a lot of this that goes on in American TV shows these days -- tons of background noise that comes and goes with dialog, the result of last-minute fixes when there's no time to do ADR.

 

[Lee Dashiell]

I use Izotope inside Pro Tools and it's very effective. I don't need to explain the entire process, just making a free offer to help another RED user that could use some help.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

Just a note.

"Fix it in post" is a means to salvage what was recorded, but for those of us in the field, the distraction can "kill a moment in time" - as is referenced in the title of this thread.

What has yet to be mentioned is those shoots when you may have 3 or more cameras up in an intimate setting.
Think of an interview with a "presidential level individual" discussing a sensitive topic. Quiet room, pin-drop acoustics to start with (not your choice, but you didn't have one to start with). Even a sideways glance on a CU when an unexpected fan kicks on can give a new visual meaning to the clip.
Not going to fix that in post.

We know that someone from RED has contributed to this thread - so they are aware. The post solution is one to keep in mind - let's see what can be developed to avoid the problem to start with.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I think they've worked on a lot of different fan solutions over the months...

from
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?49241-The-R90&p=645730&viewfull=1#post645730

in 09.2010

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

We had a shoot this weekend and I had to act as sound guy so needless to say I was paying extra close attention based on this thread.

Interior shoot. Standby mode we were at 75% and shoot was 35%. Used an MKH-50 with cut and the audio recorded to 744T. Dialogue sounded very clear and sometimes I was inside 6 feet from the camera. I was able to pick up our actress sighing and breathing clearly...any extraneous frequency such as the fan is easily cleaned up in Pro Tools -at least that was my experience as recently as two days ago. This was with one of our M cameras.

The original post read like a heartbreak indeed, but we have not had the issue (thankfully).

 

[Marc Wielage]

...any extraneous frequency such as the fan is easily cleaned up in Pro Tools -at least that was my experience as recently as two days ago. This was with one of our M cameras.

But wouldn't it be nice not to have to clean up any fan noise at all? I'm just sayin'...

What has yet to be mentioned is those shoots when you may have 3 or more cameras up in an intimate setting. Think of an interview with a "presidential level individual" discussing a sensitive topic. Quiet room, pin-drop acoustics to start with (not your choice, but you didn't have one to start with). Even a sideways glance on a CU when an unexpected fan kicks on can give a new visual meaning to the clip. Not going to fix that in post.

Very true. I have great sympathy for people who are doing 3D projects where multiple cameras (and fans) are involved.

Having said all that, I'm very impressed with the recent Epic upgrade announcement posted by Red, which specifically cites "aluminum heatsinks" and "an improved fan." Clearly, they're listening and they're trying to make things better:

http://www.red.com/news/epic-m-upgrade-program

 

[Les C.]

We had a shoot this weekend and I had to act as sound guy so needless to say I was paying extra close attention based on this thread.

Interior shoot. Standby mode we were at 75% and shoot was 35%. Used an MKH-50 with cut and the audio recorded to 744T. Dialogue sounded very clear and sometimes I was inside 6 feet from the camera. I was able to pick up our actress sighing and breathing clearly...any extraneous frequency such as the fan is easily cleaned up in Pro Tools -at least that was my experience as recently as two days ago. This was with one of our M cameras.

The original post read like a heartbreak indeed, but we have not had the issue (thankfully).

Ever applied some filters in in Photoshop in 8 bit/channel mode instead of 16 bit or 32 bit?

The histogram and other graphs end up all jagged, with pieces missing all over the place.

That's what happens to your sound when you 'clean it up in Pro Tools', whether using RX2 (best choice) or another plug-in.

The noise is really very broad spectrum, and 'cleaning' it, involves destroying parts of the sound you want to keep, taking chunks out of the audio spectrum.

Then, if you process the sound further, adding more effects in post, the flaws really show up.

Kind of like if you were using an 8 bit filter in Photoshop as your first layer.

Here's a gentleman's post from today talking about artifacts from removing noise using RX2 - where it didn't quite cut it.

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...ng-fan-noise&p=1002768&viewfull=1#post1002768

I really have trouble understanding how the perfectionist group of users in this forum, who shoot in 4K or 5K for mostly 1080p delivery (until the world catches up) to get the absolute best quality, can stomach 'less than the best' audio quality due to the noise of the camera?

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

Perhaps I wasn't clear. The audio I recorded with two wireless mics and the MKH-50 was so clean I do not need to actually apply anything to be happy with what we got...but if I did have to I know it would be mild.

It doesn't sound like there's an air conditioner or refrigerator running, or anything remotely close to that. Many shots our actors were within 6 feet of the camera. Sounds great. That's all I wanted to contribute.

 

[Nick Gardner]

I really have trouble understanding how the perfectionist group of users in this forum, who shoot in 4K or 5K for mostly 1080p delivery (until the world catches up) to get the absolute best quality, can stomach 'less than the best' audio quality due to the noise of the camera?

My point, and the above post state, that you don't have to stomach "less than the best".

Damn it. I was going to stay out of this.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Having said all that, I'm very impressed with the recent Epic upgrade announcement posted by Red, which specifically cites "aluminum heatsinks" and "an improved fan." Clearly, they're listening and they're trying to make things better:

The upgrade programm is not for current Epic-X camera who allready have the new fan and heatsink implemented. It's for the first generation Epic-M wich didn't get the new technology. The fan, on Epic-M, was blocked @ 35% for the lowest fan setting.

But I know RED will do their possible to make things better.

Pat

 

[Rob Castiglione]

I am totally committed to clean sound. My experience is like Jeremy Torrie - just not a problem I have yet experienced.

 

[Will Keir]

Looks like in the next firmware there is a "Post" fan 1 minute fix. Not sure exactly what this means, but I'm hoping you can set the fan to be off completely for a limited time.

 

[Brett Clements]

Whisper Quiet

Whisper Quiet

I have an M. I shoot on Canon primes. Mostly. I find outside influences far more of a problem than the EPIC fan. Get over it. It is not a problem. The side handle and batteries fitting into it. That's a problem. Fan noise? Blah. Go shoot.

 

[Mark Phelan]

I really have trouble understanding how the perfectionist group of users in this forum, who shoot in 4K or 5K for mostly 1080p delivery (until the world catches up) to get the absolute best quality, can stomach 'less than the best' audio quality due to the noise of the camera?

The best audio quality would be to have a completely silent camera, right? My experience has been like several others with their Epics, the fan is virtually silent during a take, then ramps up when not recording. The sound from the camera is less than the sound from room air conditioners that we have to turn off, which would exacerbate any heat issue with the camera. And even with that, I have not run into an issue yet with the fan noise from the camera.