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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

STAGE 2: KEEP your RED ONE and get EPIC-X Stage 2 package

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Eric J said:
To me this all seems ridiculous. Why in world does anyone care who sells their equipment. Isn't the fact they are getting this deal because they put down deposits?? it is amazing that people would put down deposits so far in advance and for RED to expect people to maintain ownership all this time, especially after reneging on delivery dates many times. I remember seeing posts with Ted from Red on Youtube estimating delivery of the EPIC in 2009. It still isn't really available to the public in any form other than a beta test camera "M" or in select delivery for Stages, and most parts you need to shoot are on backorder. Even the batteries, grip, etc aren't available in the store yet. I know because I am going to buy some accessories and wait for my EPIC purchase next year.

I think RED is an amazing forward thinking company and that is no doubt, but the only reason for most of the success it seems is because so many invest upfront blindly. What other company asks for pre-orders upfront so far in advance for a future possible product. This is investment money to get the cameras started and it looks like all Stages put towards this. These people minimized the risk of investing in a camera system like EPIC, so why try and bind them into keeping a camera system. They obviously are loyal customers if they still want to buy RED EPIC after all this time.

I think REd should let these people who came forward in the beginning and reason for success in the first place, sell their cameras if they wish, which seems the most appropriate thinking to me.
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yes, because they put down a deposit and because they agree with the deal (and the rules) RED was offering. RED has no obligation to give us these stage (2, 3, etc), so if you want to take this huge advantage package that includes a big discount and modules as a gift, you should follow the rules... simple and clear. If people don't like the delay (that was for many reasons; Japan, etc), they could have their deposit back.
I am stage 3 but I put a deposit in the RED account, because I don't want to miss the great deal... no body asked me to do it.

If we like the deal, we should wait, respect the agreement and say thank you RED for your generosity.
 
George Butterfield said:
What's being discussed is one and only one of the terms of the Stage 2 agreement. Namely, does the Stage 2 offer state that you have to keep your RED ONE until after you receive your EPIC in Stage 2. As Clinton would say it depends what the meaning of is, is. I guess (to some), it depends on what the meaning of "keep" is. Obviously those Stage 2 owners who keep their cameras and the spirit of the offer, do worse than those who interpret "keep" more creatively. Also those who chose Stage 3 because they interpreted keep one way also lose out to those in Stage 2 who use a different definition of "keep". At least RED can become a leaner. meaner fighting machine in the future, after all this Stage "dust" settles.
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I still do NOT understand the neccesity to "keep" something Red won't ask for in the future? Is it because they want constant feedback from the initial purchaser? Is it so since their delivery dates will fall behind and you are less likely to buy a Sony, Canon, Arri if you own your RED ONE? What is the point of "keeping your camera" if Red won't want it back in some stages?
 
Eric J said:
I still do NOT understand the neccesity to "keep" something Red won't ask for in the future? Is it because they want constant feedback from the initial purchaser? Is it so since their delivery dates will fall behind and you are less likely to buy a Sony, Canon, Arri if you own your RED ONE? What is the point of "keeping your camera" if Red won't want it back in some stages?
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If I am correct, RED isn't forcing people into Stage 2. People chose to enter Stage 2, instead of Stage 3, because they wanted to keep their RED ONEs.
 
Jean Pierre Schoch said:
yes, because they put down a deposit and because they agree with the deal (and the rules) RED was offering. RED has no obligation to give us these stage (2, 3, etc), so if you want to take this huge advantage package that includes a big discount and modules as a gift, you should follow the rules... simple and clear. If people don't like the delay (that was for many reasons; Japan, etc), they could have their deposit back.
I am stage 3 but I put a deposit in the RED account, because I don't want to miss the great deal... no body asked me to do it.

If we like the deal, we should wait, respect the agreement and say thank you RED for your generosity.
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I gotcha' and I'm a firm believer of principle, honoring things, etc, but I just do not understand what the point of keeping a camera is if they won't ask for it back? As asked for in the other posts, what intention was it by RED to keep the cameras? BTW, I can only wish I was on one of these lists or stages, and would have personally followed whatever rules if presented in a clear fashion. I just personally don't understand the point of keeping or making someone keep something they paid for?

I does seem like some deposits were made, as you stated a RED ACCOUNT deposit. Shouldn't a deposit far enough in advance be the main reason these people are getting these rates?
 
I think a large part of RED's dissatisfaction with the way it's gone is that there are/were Stage 2 and 3 Epics being sold for more than they were initially being bought for. I've seen Stage 2 for sale for no less than about $41K+ and as much as $51K. I know this because I was looking at buying a Stage 2 or 3 Epic from a RED ONE owner until I learned that there would be no warranty and I want at least the 1 year warranty of the Epic-X and may just go with the Epic-M to get it now with a 2 year warranty.

I've seen it mentioned here that some feel those who sold their RED ONEs so they could afford to be in Stage 2 have in a way cheated other Stage 2 buyers by essentially jumping in line to do so. Well, what about all the Stage 3 and 3.5 buyers? They have been cheated in a way also.

There's a difference between a long-term lease, lease-to-buy option, and a contract that says you're "leasing" the camera and definitely transferring ownership after a certain condition. That basically says the lessee will pay a certain amount of money each month for the camera and at the end (in this case when the Epic-X is delivered), pay $1 and then the official ownership will be transferred with RED. That's really a purchase on a payment program and not a long-term lease. To me, that looks like playing the loophole game, which just isn't right. Some may be able to argue that ownership has essentially changed hands, RED just doesn't know about it yet.

I agree with earlier statements that it's not RED's responsibility to check if a RED ONE changing ownership is a RED ONE that's waiting for Stage 2. It's also not RED's responsibility to police every sale of a RED ONE, when the sale ad/post shows up or when the sale occurs. I think RED has done their due diligence to present the terms of the Stage 2 agreement. It clearly states you can't transfer ownership of your RED ONE until after you take delivery of your Stage 2 Epic. It's pretty clear. And transfer of ownership doesn't necessarily just mean telling RED about it. It's not a car that you legally have to register. You can sell your RED ONE and not tell RED about the new owner, but it's a good idea to get the camera checked out, a 90-day warranty, and for future servicing purposes.

RED isn't and never said you can't sell your RED ONE. They just said you have to still own it when you take delivery of your Stage 2 Epic.
 
Michael Olsen said:
If I am correct, RED isn't forcing people into Stage 2. People chose to enter Stage 2, instead of Stage 3, because they wanted to keep their RED ONEs.
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OK, I'm seeing a little more clearly. I don't quite understand all the stages here, but I see. Stage 3 may have been another option at the same time. I was under the impression Stage 3 came at a later date, not an alternative to Stage 2. Making more sense now.
 
George,

You are correct...I am late to the party dressed in rags and hope to find a place at the table. (Outer darkness, weeping and gnashing of teeth does not appeal to me.)

Have shot stills some 40 years now learning the kinetic motion thing. Leica M6 to H3D II 39 to Leica S2-P.

Found a few captivating moments in West Africa that could not be conveyed without motion a couple of years ago.

My focus is changing and having discovered RED and JJ and Jared's business model and ethics I am totally stoked. Parsing words and commitments is anathema
to me. However, I have been a bit confused as I have followed the forum for a few months. What seemed to be legit now is suspect.

As Ketch stated .... RED will do what RED thinks is best.

I would prefer to stay on the right side of things....cannot imagine anyone would want otherwise.

Bob
 
If I was a multi billionaire I'd rather be chilling out on my private island, surfing and spearfishing everyday with all my bikini model "girlfriends" enjoying life, caring about my suntan and making sure my submarine sinks right......just saying
 
Mike Halper said:
I think a large part of RED's dissatisfaction with the way it's gone is that there are/were Stage 2 and 3 Epics being sold for more than they were initially being bought for. I've seen Stage 2 for sale for no less than about $41K+ and as much as $51K. I know this because I was looking at buying a Stage 2 or 3 Epic from a RED ONE owner until I learned that there would be no warranty and I want at least the 1 year warranty of the Epic-X and may just go with the Epic-M to get it now with a 2 year warranty.

I've seen it mentioned here that some feel those who sold their RED ONEs so they could afford to be in Stage 2 have in a way cheated other Stage 2 buyers by essentially jumping in line to do so. Well, what about all the Stage 3 and 3.5 buyers? They have been cheated in a way also.

There's a difference between a long-term lease, lease-to-buy option, and a contract that says you're "leasing" the camera and definitely transferring ownership after a certain condition. That basically says the lessee will pay a certain amount of money each month for the camera and at the end (in this case when the Epic-X is delivered), pay $1 and then the official ownership will be transferred with RED. That's really a purchase on a payment program and not a long-term lease. To me, that looks like playing the loophole game, which just isn't right. Some may be able to argue that ownership has essentially changed hands, RED just doesn't know about it yet.

I agree with earlier statements that it's not RED's responsibility to check if a RED ONE changing ownership is a RED ONE that's waiting for Stage 2. It's also not RED's responsibility to police every sale of a RED ONE, when the sale ad/post shows up or when the sale occurs. I think RED has done their due diligence to present the terms of the Stage 2 agreement. It clearly states you can't transfer ownership of your RED ONE until after you take delivery of your Stage 2 Epic. It's pretty clear. And transfer of ownership doesn't necessarily just mean telling RED about it. It's not a car that you legally have to register. You can sell your RED ONE and not tell RED about the new owner, but it's a good idea to get the camera checked out, a 90-day warranty, and for future servicing purposes.

RED isn't and never said you can't sell your RED ONE. They just said you have to still own it when you take delivery of your Stage 2 Epic.
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AHH!! This is what I was missing. People taking advantage of selling the EPICS in advance of receiving. I do see REDs side on this if it is happening. What I still don't see is how the sale of the RED ONE would matter if not returning it to RED? I think a better rule would be a contract stating one couldn't sell the EPIC for more than they bought it for. That makes more sense to me, but I'm sure I'm missing many points here by jumping in now. Good luck to all who are on either side of this.
 
Eric J said:
OK, I'm seeing a little more clearly. I don't quite understand all the stages here, but I see. Stage 3 may have been another option at the same time. I was under the impression Stage 3 came at a later date, not an alternative to Stage 2. Making more sense now.
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stage 3 was the first offer the RED made... "trade your RED ONE a get an EPIC-X"... then, so people didn't want to give back their REDs so RED decided to make stage 2 deal "KEEP your RED and get an EPIC
 
OK, got that, but why does "keep" your RED literally mean you can't sell it? Keep to me means don't return it back.

What benefit would/does this provide RED? Wouldn't it benefit RED more if the user sold it as they could now profit off the original sale of the RED ONE as well as the new sale of EPIC X, accessories, etc? In fact the only reason I can see RED not wanting to have the RED ONE owners sell their equipment is so they didn't purchase other companies products (sony, canon, etc) prior (considering the hefty price tag of RED equipment) since they knew delivery dates would be extremely long.
 
I'm a future scarlet owner, so have no connection with this.

But, I agree with the few people who have already mentioned the severe financial downturn that has happen since stage 2 announcements. I hope RED take into account that some people may have had no choice but to lease/sell their beloved camera.
 
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Vince Doran said:
If I was a multi billionaire I'd rather be chilling out on my private island, surfing and spearfishing everyday with all my bikini model "girlfriends" enjoying life, caring about my suntan and making sure my submarine sinks right......just saying
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Totally get it ... however most billionaires get to where they are with a different mindset. Probably hard to change.

I am sure that Jim takes no great pleasure in bringing this up...a wonderfully generous gesture is disrespected by a few. I would bet he has better things to address.

Bob
 
Jarred Land said:
This is really simple guys.

The Stage program was a program created to take care of our family... you guys are not just customers to us.. we really look at you as our brothers and sisters...
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Jarred, it is appreciated and I'm glad we cleared it up. I still have my Red One and eagerly awaiting stage 2. :drool: Just thinking of many (?) that sold their R1 and may lose out. Gibby? Ketch?
 
Wow.

Wow.

My Stage 2 deposited, MX-ed R1, Ed, is sitting right here in a peli case or three, while I am prepping a rented EPIC M for a shoot. Phew. I go away from the boards for 48 hours and insanity breaks out. Crazy.

I've got that "am I going to get the email when it comes time, and should I bug my bomb squad rep?" feeling going bad.
 
I've always liked Red, but being 19 years old I have never had the funds to buy new. I purchased my Red One MX used and it's worked out great for me.....however now that the ball is rolling I will be purchasing my next camera directly from Red as my funding sources have grown :)
 
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