Who is RED?

[Carl Weston]

LOL...there are many many pros shooting with so called toys(5d/7D/T2i). The red forum can sometimes feel like camera class warfare..these so-called toys have taken a lot of work from red camera owners over the past few years...lol...TOYS...

Yeah..1080 without a raw mode is more than good enough until the clients say is ain't!

 

[C.H.Haskell]

Good News.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

If Red has shifted this direction (and I am VERY glad they have), is the 2/3" format still relevant in any large quantity like Scarlet is supposed to be? Any thought to nixing it and going straight to s35 Scarlet?

 

[Terry VerHaar]

If Red has shifted this direction (and I am VERY glad they have), is the 2/3" format still relevant in any large quantity like Scarlet is supposed to be? Any thought to nixing it and going straight to s35 Scarlet?

Jim clearly stated that both 2/3" Scarlets are still on. As are S35 and FF35. And why would you say that 2/3" isn't relevant? Not everyone is constantly looking for shallow DOF. And the larger sensor cameras clearly will be priced at well above the 2/3" models - which, as Jim clearly feels, are still in the professional realm but at a price point that meets one of his target markets.

Another factor is that it would be a bit silly to nix a camera where you already have a very capable working prototype and a significant market demand among professionals.

 

[PatrickW]

If Red has shifted this direction (and I am VERY glad they have), is the 2/3" format still relevant in any large quantity like Scarlet is supposed to be? Any thought to nixing it and going straight to s35 Scarlet?

Despite the "Pro" focus, I still see a professional application for low cost 2/3 sensor cameras. They have the potential to be awesome in the ENG field, and in terms of cinema applications, 2/3 scarlets will make great crash cameras.

 

[Emiliano Ranzani]

Richard, DVXUser can best be described as a forum for those using prosumer equipment. Not an insult, just an honest observation.

Of course there are many extremely talented people using DVX's, HVX's, XH's, EX's, but those are not professional digital cinema cameras. Just the truth. Even Canon's new XF's that cost up to $8K are not digital cinema cameras. According to Canon they are designed for ENG and sports, which is why they have 1/3" chips b/c they allow a very wide zoom range.

Peter, please do not be offended, but I must ask you this: are you a professional? Because, if you are, you should know that nowadays you have to be ready to shoot with anything (and by "anything" I mean cameras ranging from 3k in price to 90k and beyond) and try to get the best out of it, no matter what. Being able to pick the right gun for the job is actually becoming an important skill for a professional and several gig (payed with real money) don't need the latest top-of-the-line piece of equipment (especially with the Web becoming more and more a very important avenue). So don't judge someone by the size of their camera.

That said, I am very happy to know Red is going to market only to professionals or aspiring ones. It could mean there will be more serious & responsible persons going 'round with compact RAW cameras and less amateurs messing around with their latest toy.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Despite the "Pro" focus, I still see a professional application for low cost 2/3 sensor cameras. They have the potential to be awesome in the ENG field, and in terms of cinema applications, 2/3 scarlets will make great crash cameras.

I completely agree with that. But the Scarlet isn't an ENG camera for a lot of reasons.

 

[David Rasberry]

If Red has shifted this direction (and I am VERY glad they have), is the 2/3" format still relevant in any large quantity like Scarlet is supposed to be? Any thought to nixing it and going straight to s35 Scarlet?

The most popular and widely used professional production format in the world relevant? Nah!:sifone:

 

[Emiliano Ranzani]

If Red has shifted this direction (and I am VERY glad they have), is the 2/3" format still relevant in any large quantity like Scarlet is supposed to be? Any thought to nixing it and going straight to s35 Scarlet?

What's wrong with 2\3'' cameras may I ask? While I am becoming more and more intrigued by EPIC, I still have a professional 2\3 Scarlet brain on my list.

I completely agree with that. But the Scarlet isn't an ENG camera for a lot of reasons.

If it will sport 50p recording (will it? I can't recall), it would come pretty usable in many HDTV apps. Even though Sony cameras will always dominate that world.

 

[Chris Kenny]

That's your opinion, but there are a number of prosumer and pro video cameras that do not shoot RAW. The Sony F35 doesn't shoot RAW for example, and that's a $150,000 camera and is considered a pro camera by most people. I don't see how any sane person could call that a toy. The Genesis doesn't shoot RAW, and even the current ARRI Alexa doesn't shoot RAW yet. And there are a number of broadcast cameras that record Rec 709 in various formats, XDCAM for example, and those are considered pro. Whether the EX3 is a pro or prosumer camera is a bit of a semantic question, but it is definitely not a consumer camera.

The key feature isn't so much recording raw sensor data (though that provides maximum flexibility and I'm glad it's Red's preferred approach), but the ability to capture an image with more tonal range than is found in a typical Rec 709 image. Cameras like Alexa can obviously do that (Log-C ProRes was a clever approach), whereas prosumer models often insist on trying to produce something like a "finished" image in-camera, which often means discarding tonal range in order to get nice solid blacks, etc.

 

[andreas margreiter]

We didn't exactly know for sure. But we are slowly figuring it out.

The concept of RED was to build a camera with as much capability as possible... for the professional market. Then we thought we could extend it down a bit to the prosumer level. Apparently, that was a mistake.

We recently came to the conclusion that, indeed, we cater to the professional market. That's it. A pro camera company. We want to build the best tools possible for those that want to "man up". There are plenty of companies dedicated to selling prosumer (short for "almost right") cameras. We aren't going to be one of them.

If you want a serious tool to use for professional projects... think RED. No more "soccer mom" thinking. Pros only. Life is short and the clock is ticking. We have decided who we are.

Jim

great clear statment! loving to see RED succeed on the pro market!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Well, if «economies of scale» is a bad principle to take off from. Economics has proven precisely the opposite. Canons, Nikons, etc such as Jim Jannard's historical as well.

I wasn't saying you can't make a profit from economies of scale, it's just a different game. It's about taking commodity mass market chips and recombining them as best you can to serve the largest market possible.

There is no room for quality in that race. If you release a 'passable' product it's which is cheaper. These are the people who go to the theater and don't notice if the projector is a little out of focus. That don't spend 3 days calibrating their TVs. That think dynamic contrast is a good thing. That crank up their TVs to max sharpness. Who don't have a problem with the 5D.

That crowd now expects their cameras to not be $5k, they expect them to be the price of a 7D: $800. They don't notice the quality improvement that $5k brings them. They don't care that their image is subsampled and over compressed. That's "pixel peeping" and it's not worth 4x the price to them.

The market for a $3k professional tool which is only incrementally better video quality over the 5D or 7D is just too small to sell in the mass market volume sector. Most DVXs weren't sold to indie film makers.

 

[neil hartop]

This is very true. Some of the most visionary filmmakers today work with limited budgets. And what about experimental and non-commercial filmmakers? Surely they are as, if not more, devoted than mainstream commercial filmmakers, but clearly, they don't have the budgets. Perhaps they are amateurs, by definition, as they make films because they are compelled to, not because they want to sell it to an audience. A professional camera at prosumer prices is exactly what they need. But that is a matter of semantics, I suppose.

"Soccer moms" or hobbyists is an entirely different thing.

I think you hit the nail on the head, youre completly right,

An unfortunate elitist attitude has now arisen. Its very sad that couldn't do it. Everyone says it would never be done for that price range. If you want to paint it as 'were being professional' instead then so be it,

But its not about whos professional its about what you can afford so you can have your 'professional' status.

Backaward thinking indeed from the rich for the rich.

Scarlet is indeed dead.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Jim,

Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!! Please keep RED 100% professional. Let the rest of the market define the low end while they fight their way to the bottom.

100% agree. we are another world, with other problems and concerns than the prosumer/wedding crowd, and completely other priorities.

 

[J Davis]

Well this 3K soccer dad has made some decisions.
I'm still in. I think I can 'man up' to these pro prices.

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

For those of us that will work these cameras to their limits, this is the best news possible at this time.

We all know this was the correct and ultimate decision. When Jim ran Oakley, did we see $19.95 sunglass specials at the local corner drugstore that bore that trademark?
Could we expect, in the long run, that the philosophy of excellence would not carry into this endeavor?

Is not the associated cost worth it to those that know the difference?
Or would we accept a lower standard to meet a price target...
To the naysayers, damn it, why should RED set their sights and dedicate assets to doing less - which only dilutes the product line. They are at the top of the game - I see no sense in not taking advantage of that position.

For Jim and the entire RED development team, riding the crest of this wave must feel more like riding a tsunami. Think of what is going on behind the scenes... All of the innovations that are being brought to us - RedCode, resolution, dynamic range, color science, HDRx - are changing the way we can interpret and capture light.

It's changing the competition as well. As a result, we all benefit.
I'm sure that part of Jim's decision to focus on the professional market is being driven by what he is seeing in the lab - and probably a good amount of feedback from the Tattoo program. That makes me more confident than ever that EPIC will be a phenomenal camera to work with. Scarlet will have it's place alongside - and that is not a bad place to be. I agree with several earlier posters that made the point that Scarlet footage should be able to intercut with images from EPIC. If that drives up the price point for Scarlet, so be it.

Stay the course you have set.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Very well, Gavin.

Even though, I wouldn't consider «economies of scale» as implying inevitably a lack of quality control. Even why you'll easily find it in the $2500-$4750 range going with any broadcast/professional offer (not necessarily cameras), for instance.

That crowd now expects their cameras to not be $5k, they expect them to be the price of a 7D: $800.

The point is there's a huge gap to fill up between $800 and $5,750, that is, more than 7.2x as same as the jump from 1/3" to full frame 35mm, only as curious term of comparison.

Don't we have S35, 4/3" or even S16-16mm-2/3" in-between for any reason?

 

[Mitch Martinez]

I love everything about this. Thanks RED team!

 

[alex lemon]

Fascinating to watch RED's evolution into more of an establishment company.

 

[J Davis]

yeh, lets just hope their manufacturing plants can catch up to their R&D