Zacuto Great Camera Shootout - and free parking!

[Martin Stevens]

I saw an interesting test on the EPIC just last week.. It was called "Prometheus"

Told me everthing I needed to know.

Jay

+1 x 10000000000000000000000000000000.1

 

[Rehan K]

I'm thinking if you *need* 4k projection to make a $40-50k camera be "definitively" better than a $600 one, than there are some serious problems (with the operator, the cinematographer, or the camera... can't be a problem with the scene, since all cams were shooting the same one). The whole "project in 4k" argument is definitely true, but understandably undermined a little because the cameras that are 4k-supersampled @ 2k should look vastly better, hands down, than a sub-1080p @ 2k camera like the hacked GH2 (not picking on RED here, as C300/F3/F65 all have 4k/8k sensors). Conversely, have the Alexa, C300, and F65 forums been detesting this "documentary/shootout" thing as much as reduser has? It seems like bitter-salty-tears in here.

yes, what's with all the whining? Every camera and operator was given equal opportunity. Someone mention "Promteheus" which was released in 2K, just like Zacuto documentary ...

 

[Rehan K]

ARRI Alexa: Looked great (My second choice for picture and 1st overall choice, given the fact that it produced the best picture with the least amount of relighting and the least amount of post production tweaking). In the end, the camera that allows you to get a great picture with the least amount of work (and the least amount of expensive color suite rental time!) is the winner for me. Great pictures at the right price point.

Alan

Actually, according to Zacuto documents,

http://www.zacuto.com/zvideo/RGCSO-TechnicalCameraDocumentation-V1.pdf

Alexa team took 30 minutes to relight the scene.

Sony F65 was the only team that didn't change anything to the lighting ...

 

[Tom Hamilton]

I saw an interesting test on the EPIC just last week.. It was called "Prometheus"

Can't really argue with that. If Ridley Scott says Epic is his preferred camera of choice, there really isn't much more that can be said.

In any event, horses for courses, if I-Phone fits your deliverables profile, then that is what you should use.

 

[António Fagundes]

This "test" was a crime... as expected.

Jim

What a whiner... you don't even know which one is your camera, and you're already discarding everyone's work and effort in the test. This shows that Red keeps on digging deeper and deeper into alienation with this embarrassing attitude. The typical American 'Mine is bigger than yours!' Please just leave it. Red is not the best camera, it never was and who knows if it will ever be. I love Epic, but I always get a hard time from people whenever I want to use it, with the typical comment, 'Red is best of the worst cameras'. And always end up shooting Alexa or Canon. And believe me, all because of this attitude, not the camera per say.

Although it was a very big mistake from Red to ever even sell the first Mysterium camera. Now we can all agree and be honest about the fact that it looked like crap, like a 4k bad video camera. But back then, Jim and other folks at Red were fighting everyone saying how good it was. Really? You guys lost a lot of cred there. Mysterium X saved Red, but the bad smell still sticks...

Also the Shootout has far too much sentimentality crap for my taste. And I'm also confused about this notion that 'its a test, but its not really a test...' so what is it, a documentary about a test that doesn't matter what the results are? Make up your minds, will you please?

 

[Nick Morrison]

What a whiner... you don't even know which one is your camera, and you're already discarding everyone's work and effort in the test. This shows that Red keeps on digging deeper and deeper into alienation with this embarrassing attitude. The typical American 'Mine is bigger than yours!' Please just leave it. Red is not the best camera, it never was and who knows if it will ever be. I love Epic, but I always get a hard time from people whenever I want to use it, with the typical comment, 'Red is best of the worst cameras'. And always end up shooting Alexa or Canon. And believe me, all because of this attitude, not the camera per say.

Although it was a very big mistake from Red to ever even sell the first Mysterium camera. Now we can all agree and be honest about the fact that it looked like crap, like a 4k bad video camera. But back then, Jim and other folks at Red were fighting everyone saying how good it was. Really? You guys lost a lot of cred there. Mysterium X saved Red, but the bad smell still sticks...

Also the Shootout has far too much sentimentality crap for my taste. And I'm also confused about this notion that 'its a test, but its not really a test...' so what is it, a documentary about a test that doesn't matter what the results are? Make up your minds, will you please?

Hmmm...I see things differently. Until RED, there was no serious digital Hollywood approach to film-making...at least not something that mere mortals could afford. RED changed that, forever.

Alexa, F65...these are all the step-children of what RED created. RED, pun intended, is the original PROMETHEUS.

You may not like their style, but you certainly seem to like the world they have created.

Me thinks, perhaps, you take them for granted.

 

[Tom Hamilton]

What a whiner...

Antonio, not really sure what you are saying here. I'll freely admit that the 'overhead', file sizes, post processes and so forth are somewhat cumbersome with Red, but the final results are huge. No doubt, you need accomplished post people to make that happen.

But, like a German cook of impressive girth and huge reputation, in a small family restaurant in Bavaria some years ago, as I was starvingly waiting for my Sauerbraten and Rostbratkartofflen, some fifty minutes into the wait, he said, 'Ach Was! Good Food takes time to cook!) :thumbsup:

Have another Schnapps, it will all come good.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

"Although it was a very big mistake from Red to ever even sell the first Mysterium camera. Now we can all agree and be honest about the fact that it looked like crap, like a 4k bad video camera. But back then, Jim and other folks at Red were fighting everyone saying how good it was. Really? You guys lost a lot of cred there. Mysterium X saved Red, but the bad smell still sticks..." - don't be absolutely ludicrous. Go take a look back at those movies and TV shows shot on the original R1 - none of them looked as you described. Just because the M-X was an improvement doesn't mean the original was bad.

Graeme

 

[Nick Morrison]

"Although it was a very big mistake from Red to ever even sell the first Mysterium camera. Now we can all agree and be honest about the fact that it looked like crap, like a 4k bad video camera. But back then, Jim and other folks at Red were fighting everyone saying how good it was. Really? You guys lost a lot of cred there. Mysterium X saved Red, but the bad smell still sticks..." - don't be absolutely ludicrous. Go take a look back at those movies and TV shows shot on the original R1 - none of them looked as you described. Just because the M-X was an improvement doesn't mean the original was bad.

Graeme

Yeah seriously...when RED came out, what other alternative was there?

It was either an HVX or FILM....and then the R1 changed everything.

People love to re-write History.


RED hasn't even had a serious competitor for 5 years until the emergence of the Alexa.

 

[Taj Jackson]

The test was a crime... It was more like a DP shoot out rather than a camera shoot out. It's like having a guitar shoot out and inviting each top musician to play a different guitar.
And then after it's all over, saying this guitar sounds better based on the musicians abilities. Doesn't prove anything.

 

[Bob Gundu]

hmmmm. I was pretty damn impressed when I saw this. You seriously think this looks like crap?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpTHFVBlm_A

What a whiner... you don't even know which one is your camera, and you're already discarding everyone's work and effort in the test. This shows that Red keeps on digging deeper and deeper into alienation with this embarrassing attitude. The typical American 'Mine is bigger than yours!' Please just leave it. Red is not the best camera, it never was and who knows if it will ever be. I love Epic, but I always get a hard time from people whenever I want to use it, with the typical comment, 'Red is best of the worst cameras'. And always end up shooting Alexa or Canon. And believe me, all because of this attitude, not the camera per say.

Although it was a very big mistake from Red to ever even sell the first Mysterium camera. Now we can all agree and be honest about the fact that it looked like crap, like a 4k bad video camera. But back then, Jim and other folks at Red were fighting everyone saying how good it was. Really? You guys lost a lot of cred there. Mysterium X saved Red, but the bad smell still sticks...

Also the Shootout has far too much sentimentality crap for my taste. And I'm also confused about this notion that 'its a test, but its not really a test...' so what is it, a documentary about a test that doesn't matter what the results are? Make up your minds, will you please?

 

[Rehan K]

The test was a crime... It was more like a DP shoot out rather than a camera shoot out. It's like having a guitar shoot out and inviting each top musician to play a different guitar.
And then after it's all over, saying this guitar sounds better based on the musicians abilities. Doesn't prove anything.

There were actually two tests. In the creative version DP were allowed to relight the scene. In the empirical test, everone had to shoot with the same lighting. Sony F65 team didn't even bother with relighting the scene according to this PDF document ...

http://www.zacuto.com/zvideo/RGCSO-TechnicalCameraDocumentation-V1.pdf

I think this says something about the confidence they had in their camera ....

No one is whining about F65 performance and calling the shootout a "ctime" .. Why is that?

 

[Nick Morrison]

There were actually two tests. In the creative version DP were allowed to relight the scene. In the empirical test, everone had to shoot with the same lighting. Sony F65 team didn't even bother with relighting the scene according to this PDF document ...

http://www.zacuto.com/zvideo/RGCSO-TechnicalCameraDocumentation-V1.pdf

I think this says something about the confidence they had in their camera ....

No one is whining about F65 performance and calling the shootout a "ctime" .. Why is that?

1) I think this document also says that the F65 team was just a "Sony Approved Cinematographer". They have no DP name like everyone else. Maybe he/she was just a camera tech...and didn't feel qualified to change the lighting?

2) The test is a crime because a lot of what the Epic does "better" (5K, HDRX, RAW, Slow-Mo etc) was never showcased. Instead, the Epic was forced to compete only in categories the other cameras could fare well in.

It's like asking Lebron to not rebound or pass, cuz his overall game's too good.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

Hmmm...I see things differently. Until RED, there was no serious digital Hollywood approach to film-making...at least not something that mere mortals could afford. RED changed that, forever.

Alexa, F65...these are all the step-children of what RED created. RED, pun intended, is the original PROMETHEUS.

You may not like their style, but you certainly seem to like the world they have created.

Me thinks, perhaps, you take them for granted.

I think you are re-writing history quite a bit here, the F65 and Alexa are not step children of the Red One, the F65 is a natural evolution of Sony's existing pipeline which goes all the way back to the Panavision Genesis pre dating the Red One and even that began it's planning back when the f900 was first launched.
As for Alexa it's just the followup for their D20 and D21 cameras, perhaps Red influenced the new focus on 4k but 4k predates the red one as well not to mention the mere existence of Sony's 4k projector could explain the f65.
As for the smaller 35mm cameras like fs100 and f3, I think the DSLR craze played a bigger part in their conception then the Red camera did.

 

[Nick Morrison]

I think you are re-writing history quite a bit here, the F65 and Alexa are not step children of the Red One, the F65 is a natural evolution of Sony's existing pipeline which goes all the way back to the Panavision Genesis pre dating the Red One and even that began it's planning back when the f900 was first launched.
As for Alexa it's just the followup for their D20 and D21 cameras, perhaps Red influenced the new focus on 4k but 4k predates the red one as well not to mention the mere existence of Sony's 4k projector could explain the f65.
As for the smaller 35mm cameras like fs100 and f3, I think the DSLR craze played a bigger part in their conception then the Red camera did.

Am I rewriting History? I'll give it you that both Sony and Arri already had their camera's in the pipeline. Every company has "something" on deck.

But RED changed the marketplace. How much was the Genesis? $200k? $500k?

The R1 was $25k and was a superior camera at a fraction of the price.

In an ECONOMIC sense, both the Alexa and F65 are absolutely descendants of RED, in that both are sub $100k cameras.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

Am I rewriting History? I'll give it you that both Sony and Arri already had their camera's in the pipeline. Every company has "something" on deck.

But RED changed the marketplace. How much was the Genesis? $200k? $500k?

The R1 was $25k and was a superior camera at a fraction of the price.

In an ECONOMIC sense, both the Alexa and F65 are absolutely descendants of RED, in that both are sub $100k cameras.

That is not what your original post implied, I think you're spinning a little here. From a pricing stand point the Epic has probably made Sony re think the idea of a camera that costs $150k for a body but technology advances may have contributed to that as well.
The Genesis is a rental only camera as well so there is no real price tag on it other than to guess that maybe it is worth the same as an F35.

 

[Taj Jackson]

But RED changed the marketplace. How much was the Genesis? $200k? $500k?

Exactly. Without Red, I would never have been able to purchase my own "cinematic" camera. Sony and Arri would still be price gouging because there would be no true price competition.

 

[Taj Jackson]

1)
2) The test is a crime because a lot of what the Epic does "better" (5K, HDRX, RAW, Slow-Mo etc) was never showcased. Instead, the Epic was forced to compete only in categories the other cameras could fare well in.

It's like asking Lebron to not rebound or pass, cuz his overall game's too good.

You took the words right out of my mouth.
Sure.. Some may call me a Red fan boy.. But in reality, I just appreciate when someone like Jim and co. dares to rock the boat and succeeds. Yes, I could have bought an Alexa...but for me, since it was such a sizeable investment, I chose to buy the camera that in my mind was future proof.

 

[Craig W. Bickerstaff]

Exactly. Without Red, I would never have been able to purchase my own "cinematic" camera. Sony and Arri would still be price gouging because there would be no true price competition.

Yes and no, the DSLR phenomenon would have happened with or without the Red one and the arrival of the C300 would certainly have given these big companies a shakeup but it's easy to look back and speculate on this stuff, would we have GUI without apple? I think it would have come eventually.

You took the words right out of my mouth.
Sure.. Some may call me a Red fan boy.. But in reality, I just appreciate when someone like Jim and co. dares to rock the boat and succeeds. Yes, I could have bought an Alexa...but for me, since it was such a sizeable investment, I chose to buy the camera that in my mind was future proof.

So you bought a camera and it's working out great for you, it's not a crime that it didn't perform as good as you would have liked in a test, the conformation of wether or not you made the right choice comes from your own personal experiences not the great camera shootout. So the idea that it's a "crime" is nonsense. DSLR users aren't constantly complaining when Red makes their images look like ass, they get out there and make great stuff.
I have an EX1r, Would I like to have an Epic instead? Sure! But this is what I could get my hands on and I get good results from it, I don't look at the people on youtube who can't seem to use the camera properly and say it's a crime that they make it look shit.

 

[António Fagundes]

The R1 was indeed a breakthrough camera, but lets be honest, how can one compare the R1 with the MX? It's apples and oranges. It wasn't until the charge of MX that things really took off sky high, and as far as I'm concerned, that's where Red should have started. Sure, a lot of stuff was shot on the R1, I personally shot lots of stuff on it. But A) 4K was of no use at the time (still really isn't now) and B) the image processing power and film 'like' quality wasn't strong enough to convince 'film' people. Was it a success? Sure, but so was the DSLR movement, and that doesn't mean it was the dog bollocks, as the MX is, and surely the Dragon will be even more.

What made a lot of people uncomfortable with Red was mainly their attitude, and that attitude still stands today, and these tests show that, discarding anything else as crap, unprofessional and whatnot. And that keeps hurting Red's reputation as a non-balanced, arrogant somewhat dishonest manufacturer, all I'm saying is that all of this animosity can be spared if Jim and Co. took a more 'professional' approach and a less 'high school' self importance.

I love that Zacuto are making these tests, I'm confortable with Red's position in the overall 'score' even thought we don't know about them yet, I'm sure it will be in the top three if not at the top. And that's fine by me, and it should be fine by Red also. Like someone said in the documentary, 'here (in Hollywood) no one cares what camera you shot on.' And that sums it up, anything else like all the fanboyism, its just non-filmmaking issues that shouldn't be part of the industry. The documentary is right on one thing, it doesn't matter what camera you use, its what you can do with it. That's what film making is all about, talent, creativity, confidence. And Red keeps claiming that its not. That's its all about 5K!

Give it a break.