Zacuto Great Camera Shootout - and free parking!

[Paul Schneider]

Two problems I detect:

1> Each camera gets 90 min to mess with the lights to perfect the scene for the given camera. Well, that's not a good test, because even an 8 bit camera can have the light optimized for it's crappy limitations. I'd rather see a more stressful test, to see how easy it is to rescue/recover a scene if the lighting was not perfect, and was rushed a bit like on a low budget production.

2> Viewing the results in 2K is so 1990. Like running an F1 race with a 65 mph speed limit and training wheels. 'Most of the world has a 65 mph speed limit, so we decided to run the race at 65 mph'

The "point" was not to TEST the cameras this year.
It was to take a group of skilled DP's who had experience with a lot of different cameras and to allow them to make a scene look as good as it could. The results are supposed to be a discussion as to what each camera brings to the table and how a good or innovative DP can play off the strengths and weaknesses given certain situations. The guys at Zacuto realized a while back that testing cameras was stupid, that talented folks could always find workarounds for limitations and achieve amazing stuff, so they wanted to embrace that.

I for one think its a good idea. Screw camera tech. I own a Scarlet and shoot national spots on Epics or Alexa's every month, but these aren't always the right tools. I know plenty of folks that can and do blow the doors off 75% of the content shot on RED's with DSLRs given a well thought out plan...its about talent, and ideas...not equipment. The cool bit is understanding the thought process of great DP's, because that'll work wonders no matter what you're shooting on.

As for the viewing. 4K would be lovely, but the world is not a movie screen. Sorry. Show me a 4K tv my Dad would buy or a consumer level 4K computer monitor for that matter and I'll agree wholeheartedly. Not a knock on Red's driving the market forward at all, just say'n. For god sakes, I own a damn near super computer and the 4K post pipeline is a killer, Red Rocket or not.

 

[Kwan Khan]

What, no iPhone in this test?

Hahahahaha

 

[Paul Schneider]

An interesting note, is that after tuesday, the screenings at NAB were cancelled. They say it was based on "an anomaly" but No idea what that means.

I believe the story at NAB was that Bruce Logan who was running the test decided that the video that was sent out by the post facility who had done the transfer and grading was flawed in some way and didn't meet his standards. Knowing how critical and overly geeky serious people take these things he made an executive decision not to show it.

Zacuto sponsors the test, but they don't actually have anything to do with the results and agreed that if Bruce wasn't happy then it wasn't to be shown until he was.

 

[Paul Schneider]

Hahahahaha

Actually, I think they did throw one in there, more for fun...and I think it did pretty damn good when lit correctly. Believe it or not.
Again. DP's often don't get to choose their tools. They should, but they don't. The great ones can make anything look good, and lets face it, if you light like crap your just going to get crap...no matter what you're shooting on.

 

[Bruce Allen]

2> Viewing the results in 2K is so 1990. Like running an F1 race with a 65 mph speed limit and training wheels. 'Most of the world has a 65 mph speed limit, so we decided to run the race at 65 mph'

No, actually 2K it's so 2012 I tried pretty hard to see Dragon Tattoo at 4K... and failed. In LA, film capital of the world. Hopefully 4K is so 2013

It's currently a 2K world. Let's just be realistic. Hopefully that will change soon.

1990 would have been a grainy piece of film which in most theaters was approx 800p real resolution.

Anyway, I signed up. Hope I'm not stuck at work and can actually go.

I like RED and am not afraid of the truth.

Also... if the RED footage isn't finished R3D to the end... it doesn't count in our eyes.

So Dragon Tattoo doesn't count? I mean, it was graded from DPX files...

Anyway, my movies have VFX in them, so finishing R3D to the end is not an option and not interesting for my workflow.

Also... personally I think I get better results than finishing R3D to the end - because I know how to create a RGB file that has all of the information I need - and then do do chromatic aberration correction for the lenses and apply Neat Video correctly before grading. This helps me get really nice clean secondary keys while grading.

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

If I can be of any help... ,-)

If I can be of any help... ,-)

Bruce-

I am on the waiting list for Neil's showings. If you can't make it ping me and I'll pretend to be you ;-)

PS - Kudos for keeping things real in terms of the practical considerations that often dictate getting from R3Ds to RGB files earlier in the process than final grading with current toolsets/workflows. With proper handling DPX and OpenEXR are both viable formats for preserving image quality. That said, RAW R3Ds are still the optimal choice when practical.

Cheers - #19

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

We just don't understand why the test doesn't also have a 4K finish. The future is 4K delivery... and the future is now.

Do the test with a 4K finish also and we'll be happy to show up and service the EPIC. Otherwise... this should be on DVXuser.

Sooo.... Prometheus belongs on DVXUser?

Also... if the RED footage isn't finished R3D to the end... it doesn't count in our eyes.

Jim

Why? As soon as you want to start grading footage it has to be converted to RGB whether you do that as Step 1 in your program or Step 1 outside your program is irrelevant. OpenEXR is as good as RAW if your whitebalance is properly set. Again... so Prometheus doesn't count anymore?

 

[Erich Ocean]

I tried pretty hard to see Dragon Tattoo at 4K... and failed. In LA, film capital of the world.

Same here. I made a huge effort, and still couldn't get it done in LA. *grrrrrr*

I eventually saw it on Blu-ray on my home theater projector, and damn, I really like it.

 

[Jannard]

Please read Zacuto test thread on recon.

Jim

 

[Gunleik Groven]

We just don't understand why the test doesn't also have a 4K finish. The future is 4K delivery... and the future is now.

Do the test with a 4K finish also and we'll be happy to show up and service the EPIC. Otherwise... this should be on DVXuser.

Also... if the RED footage isn't finished R3D to the end... it doesn't count in our eyes.

Jim

LOL

Even LightIron does DPX/EXR stuff...

And the Rocket delivers RGB, not RAW, so I dunno who really does this right, then...

If what you say isn't, the secret is in the full development of the RAW files into RGB be it "live out of rocket" or in a lossless format like 16bit log dpx or lin EXR... Because then we're on the same page. If not, I don't really see what you mean here...

It would probably be unpolite to start to make a list of "RED posterboy" films finnished in 2k and not 4k.
But 4k is probably the future for large theatres. I do agree with that.

 

[Perry Ho]

Mr. Jim!

They might need to borrow your Red Ray and 4K Projector for the finish... Hehe...

We just don't understand why the test doesn't also have a 4K finish. The future is 4K delivery... and the future is now.

Do the test with a 4K finish also and we'll be happy to show up and service the EPIC. Otherwise... this should be on DVXuser.

Also... if the RED footage isn't finished R3D to the end... it doesn't count in our eyes.

Jim

 

[Martin Stevens]

I think the point is to use the R3D as far along the chain as possible and then have a nice RGB output at the end.
But 'the end' can mean many things and perhaps this should have a better definition.

I personally don't see any harm in going to RGB early on as long as it is done with high precision and contains
all the data properly.

Let's not forget that good old film negative is not RAW and it can be graded as an RGB file quite nicely
if scanned properly.

Sorry, if the info in this post is all too obvious.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I think the point is to use the R3D as far along the chain as possible and then have a nice RGB output at the end.
But 'the end' can mean many things and perhaps this should have a better definition.

I personally don't see any harm in going to RGB early on as long as it is done with high precision and contains
all the data properly.

Let's not forget that good old film negative is not RAW and it can be graded as an RGB file quite nicely
if scanned properly.

Sorry, if the info in this post is all too obvious.

It's very good.

Very few people seem to understand what happens with the signal going through the chain and that they actually never "view RAW"...

 

[Martin Stevens]

I don't believe I have ever seen a RAW file.

It would look like a Black and White (monochromatic) image.

What's really amazing to me is that a single channel RAW file can be translated into
3 channels of heaven. The science behind it is very impressive.

 

[Al Hill]

I believe the story at NAB was that Bruce Logan who was running the test decided that the video that was sent out by the post facility who had done the transfer and grading was flawed in some way and didn't meet his standards. Knowing how critical and overly geeky serious people take these things he made an executive decision not to show it.

Zacuto sponsors the test, but they don't actually have anything to do with the results and agreed that if Bruce wasn't happy then it wasn't to be shown until he was.

Zacuto screened the 2012 footage in LA today. Very interesting.

1st pass, each camera with the team trying to get the best picture out of a fixed lighting setup, meant to challenge the cameras.
Then a discussion...
2nd pass, Blind screening of the cameras in a random order. Each camera crew had the opportunity to change the lighting (90minutes of changes) and were given 90min in post to work on the final shot. Again a blind look at the best each team could do with the camera, lighting and post.
Then a discussion...
Then after the end credits we saw the "RAW" camera footage compared to the team's best effort, with lighting and post. (These were labeled)

The quality was there for almost every camera. Some didn't fair as well, namely the 7D didn't seem to please a lot of folks. The Hacked GH2 surprised a lot of folks. It wasn't best, but it really held it's own, especially since it's an $800 camera going up against $80,000 cameras. Even the iPhone 4s held up okay... And hey, it's the only one in the bunch that you can use to make telephone calls and browse the web! Let's see RED do that! ;-)

It's definitely going to be a worthy test for people to download and review. The final edited film by Zacuto should be interesting to see and hear what the Cinematographers did as far as lighting changes and post production adjustments. You will definitely have to download the original files from Zacuto because the differences in most cases were very subtle. Often coming down to creative choices made by the cameramen and camerawomen.

Which camera won? I won't cop out and say the usual p.c. crap like each had it's own strength. For me, if I were renting a camera tomorrow and delivering in 2k (which most projects are right now), it would be the Arri Alexa. The Alexa consistently ranked high by most people there and the images appeared to need very little in the way of post production to make them look great. And in the real world a fast/easy post workflow saves producers money. A producer saving money is a happy producer. Which leaves them with more money to pay good camera crews. Okay, I guy can hope, can't he?

Some will say, "Oh, yeah but what about 4k?" Well, there were only 3 cameras there that could shoot 4k or thereabouts. And if I had the budget for a 4k delivery, I'd probably lobby for 65mm film capture, assuming you could still get enough raw stock to shoot. Then people would see the end result and say, "Oooh, I really like that look. Let's buy one of those cameras..."

The most encouraging theme to take away is that the differences between the cameras is narrowing. So some time in the not too distant future we can get back to focusing on other things like, good lighting... good camera moves... performance, plot, character development. Music... Makeup... Craft Services... You know all the other things that make for great cinema...

Nice job was done by all who obviously worked very hard to make all this possible. If you can make it to a screening near you, I would definitely recommend it.

Thanks Zacuto et al....

Alan

 

[Detlev Eller]

I don't to see no stinkin "science" to know my camera and lens is the best in the universe. Any who disagrees is a clearly a terrorist

... lol ... (!)

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

The test was a HUGE #FAIL last year.

I don't think so. But no test is complete or tells every story.

I'd rather see a more stressful test, to see how easy it is to rescue/recover a scene if the lighting was not perfect, and was rushed a bit like on a low budget production.

2> Viewing the results in 2K is so 1990. Like running an F1 race with a 65 mph speed limit and training wheels. 'Most of the world has a 65 mph speed limit, so we decided to run the race at 65 mph'

They did perform over- and underexposure tests last year. And I agree with your second point. Have both, 2K and 4K, of course.

What, no iPhone in this test?

They didn't want to embarass the 7D.

1990 would have been a grainy piece of film which in most theaters was approx 800p real resolution.

But a beautiful 800p. ;-)

 

[Álex Montoya]

AL, someone said that the C300 was less than stellar. Is that true?

 

[steve weiss]

We are kidding ourselves if we think this the 3 part documentary is going to be about the test, it's much more. Really the test is in the background and that's why we call it "Revenge". The Revenge part that you will hear in interviews from al of the ASC/CSC/BSC/ACS and other cinema society filmmakers as well as independents tailing about the art and craft of cinematography--never mentioning any cameras-- because to them it's not really that much a part of the equations except for getting the right camera for the right job, budget, ergonomics, etc. Not one person in any of the screening ever mentioned 2K vs. 4K. We are planning on possibly having a screening at cinegear in the Paramount theater on the lot, but alas it's also 2K. It's gear that makes great films, it's you and no amount of hype or talk is going to change that. If you bought me a great set of golf clubs, it would not make me a great golfer, I suck no matter what sticks you give me. Now speed to acquire these images with smaller cameras, amount of time in Color timing, amount of crew and amount of lighting are all issues that need to be addressed and we will. As always no magic bullet, gotta have talent and it's hard to polish a turd. From what I could see most of the higher end cameras produced brilliant images and we never turned it into a contest, F3, C300, Epic, Alexa, F65 were in one league and the smaller cameras were in another. But surprisingly, several folks picked the GH2--myself I think it looks to video'ish, including one extremely notable director that will go unnamed till episode two. In over 40 interviews with Cinematographers, the over-riding message is that it's all about people, mastery of their equipment, lighting skill for their camera and over all talent. Love you guys, great enthusiasm, focus on the stuff that matters, lighting, blocking , talent performance, composition, let's knot try to get too hung up on the fan oriented stuff. You all want to come better cinematographers, and I'd think that's what most of these dialogues should be on, no?

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

You all want to come better cinematographers, and I'd think that's what most of these dialogues should be on, no?

Well, actually, no. These dialogues are about how equipment performs. If Zacuto were to publish a series of cinematography masterclasses, then you could say that the equipment is not that important, it's the principles that matter. In fact I'd love to see a series like that. But when you're talking about cameras (and lenses) then you can't also say that cameras don't matter.

Anyway, as I've said before, I am grateful that Zacuto puts in the effort to give us comparative camera tests.