Will we ever get PRORES ?

[NOSA OBAYIUWANA]

On one hand people want what they want..... on the other hand there were other options... and we knew the camera did not do prores when we bought it.

It would be nice to have raw and prores (like the Alexa) but I guess we do not want to pay Arri prices.... so we go with Red.

 

[NOSA OBAYIUWANA]

And some of us like 6K

 

[Phil Holland]

I started a thread like this a while back...

I understand the perspective and desire Leroy, but the hard truth about ProRes and Epic and Scarlet bodies is that there's no realtime hardware ProRes Encoder "connected" to the live stream to enable this function. This was why RED dabbled a bit with Meizler and it's what led to the R&D and implementation of ProRes in DSMC2 style RED camera bodies.

It's been discussed much over the years and the same answer is still the truth. Interestingly enough a module could be made to handle this function. Now that RED has 3rd party developers I imagine a module for such a thing is entirely possible. You can capture 1080p out now via the SDI and HDMI port. If you are looking for the 4K stream up to 60fps you'll be looking at the REDCAST Module + recorder of some sort. Those are the solutions you have now.

 

[Karel Šimůnek]

I ordered the Raven and It will be my first RED camera. So I don't know about battle RAW vs ProRes and what's better and what has better picture quality and so on.
BUT.
Isn't the RAW the best possible format for every professional in the world? And It doesn't matter if it's video or photo. Everyone wants to shoot in RAW.
This is my opinion.

 

[Phil Holland]

I ordered the Raven and It will be my first RED camera. So I don't know about battle RAW vs ProRes and what's better and what has better picture quality and so on.
BUT.
Isn't the RAW the best possible format for every professional in the world? And It doesn't matter if it's video or photo. Everyone wants to shoot in RAW.
This is my opinion.

It's an opinion shared by many, but there are indeed many types of fields and shoots out there. Imaging a straight to broadcast or straight to web ENG style shoot for instance.

REDCODE RAW has several advantages over a baked ProRes file. Mainly in the form of non-destructive Color Space, Gamma Space, ISO/FLUT, and general color editing. The difference is clear if you are comparing say a ProRes file exported in one of the video gamma spaces such as REDgamma4. There is potential to lose a bit of information in there that's within the REDCODE RAW files. With Weapon and Raven having much lower REDCODE RAW Compression Ratios there are subtle differences you can see when it comes down to bit rate and general information when comparing against ProRes as well.

Me personally? I mean holy crap. I think I was doing voodoo, shrine worship, small rodent sacrifices, and rubbing any brass lamp for like what 5-7 years wishing for a compressed raw digital cineam camera to exist. It's one of the main reasons I jumped into the RED workflow. And REDCODE RAW capture remains my preferred workflow. Yes, I'm a realist and for many applications ProRes and DNxHD/HR are "right" for the job. The thing is, overall I'm focused on image quality. REDCODE RAW gets me the maximum potential and that's all I'm looking for.

I will say this though, I enjoy making my ProRes masters and deliverables. I still get excited when baking out my files with a custom look or LUT and enjoy the semi-magical effect of that first 4K render of the finished color work on anything. It's still that weird moment where if everything happened right in the performance, exposure selection, lighting, and camera operation that I see exactly what's up. Still get real jazzed about that. Like every time.

 

[Demetri Zuev]

I'd pay for a prores module for Epic Dragon that enables all flavors of prores up to 2K 120fps. No bulky red cast module plus recorder, but a compact solution. Maybe even with its own mini mag slot like the proxy module once was. Or cfast.

I'd also pay for a DSMC2 style body with prores up to 2K if it was a regular $10K upgrade.

Sadly none of these are happening. Prores is one of the biggest selling points of Weapon line and RED won't shoot themselves in the leg and take it away from a new camera system which is their main focus right now.

 

[Karel Šimůnek]

It's an opinion shared by many, but there are indeed many types of fields and shoots out there. Imaging a straight to broadcast or straight to web ENG style shoot for instance.

REDCODE RAW has several advantages over a baked ProRes file. Mainly in the form of non-destructive Color Space, Gamma Space, ISO/FLUT, and general color editing. The difference is clear if you are comparing say a ProRes file exported in one of the video gamma spaces such as REDgamma4. There is potential to lose a bit of information in there that's within the REDCODE RAW files. With Weapon and Raven having much lower REDCODE RAW Compression Ratios there are subtle differences you can see when it comes down to bit rate and general information when comparing against ProRes as well.

Me personally? I mean holy crap. I think I was doing voodoo, shrine worship, small rodent sacrifices, and rubbing any brass lamp for like what 5-7 years wishing for a compressed raw digital cineam camera to exist. It's one of the main reasons I jumped into the RED workflow. And REDCODE RAW capture remains my preferred workflow. Yes, I'm a realist and for many applications ProRes and DNxHD/HR are "right" for the job. The thing is, overall I'm focused on image quality. REDCODE RAW gets me the maximum potential and that's all I'm looking for.

I will say this though, I enjoy making my ProRes masters and deliverables. I still get excited when baking out my files with a custom look or LUT and enjoy the semi-magical effect of that first 4K render of the finished color work on anything. It's still that weird moment where if everything happened right in the performance, exposure selection, lighting, and camera operation that I see exactly what's up. Still get real jazzed about that. Like every time.

Man! This is the answer of answers!
Thank you!
Yes. I have the same feeling about shooting and workflow.
From the first moment I was looking for the camera that shoots RAW. Some cameras have 4k and nice 4k but to get RAW you have to connect to other devices. And I don't like that. There is URSA but it doesn't have those beautiful modules like RED and the form factor is not for me. I want to use DJI Ronin a lot.
I'm not here because high frame rates and ProRes. I'm here becuause of REDCODE RAW. I absolutely love the option that I can lower the compression ratio and still get RAW in higher frame rates.

I just want to shoot RAW and playing with those shots in FCPX without destroying the image quality.

 

[Mert Icgoren]

Jeff's explanation makes a lot of sense regarding the built of Dragon and what is it capable of. Thank you for taking time to explain Jeff

My main problem is with the amount of data the redcode produces. There are times when I need to shoot a lower budget project with a faster turn around. And it's nice to have the option to do that. Prores makes the camera a more versatile camera, I'm not going to get into the "if you're gonna shoot prores then why did you buy Dragon? " discussion.

How about having a higher SDI/HDMI output, like 2K ? So that it would be possible to record to an external recorder. Do you think that is possible ?

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

Jeff's explanation makes a lot of sense regarding the built of Dragon and what is it capable of. Thank you for taking time to explain Jeff

My main problem is with the amount of data the redcode produces. There are times when I need to shoot a lower budget project with a faster turn around. And it's nice to have the option to do that. Prores makes the camera a more versatile camera, I'm not going to get into the "if you're gonna shoot prores then why did you buy Dragon? " discussion.

How about having a higher SDI/HDMI output, like 2K ? So that it would be possible to record to an external recorder. Do you think that is possible ?

You need Redcast module for 4K sdi output.It does only 4K and 1080p

 

[Brian Merlen]

Yeah. Need the right tools for the job if you're doing 20 mags at time.

But in general why encode? All modern NLEs edit r3d.

Because major Fortune 500 companies edit on five or ten year old machines in 1080i and output their projects to beta or hdcam still since they are entrenched in their workflows and hardware. Even shows just a couple years old have a tape master in interlaced and wouldn't surprise me if the new stuff does too. A lot of DPs probably have no idea how compressed I've made things for even large brand online distributors and would be sad to know how compressed I've seen stuff go out as. Most of their workflow is focused on CC pass through of meta data and using digital Rapids to encode it with either de interlacing or adding interlace depending if we're going to web or TV. So 4k might as well be on Mars for many companies other than for acquisition for the heck of it but you gotta realize lots of productions shoot things in pro res with Arri and 1080 is fine for them. I like Netflix pushing back against that trend but many shows really can be fine on a six year old Arri or red one even

 

[Matthew Quinn]

Its pretty simple. Use the Epic dragon for bigger jobs, use raven for jobs that require prores, use the cameras TOGETHER to do multicam shoots.. this was my plan as soon as i saw raven,.. I did not feel like upgrading my new dragon AGAIN to weapon for what i saw as not many new features. now i will have 2 cameras for less than it would have cost me to upgrade the one. I'm happy.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Interestingly enough a module could be made to handle this function. Now that RED has 3rd party developers I imagine a module for such a thing is entirely possible. You can capture 1080p out now via the SDI and HDMI port. If you are looking for the 4K stream up to 60fps you'll be looking at the REDCAST Module + recorder of some sort. Those are the solutions you have now.

I'd like to see an external 4K or HD ProRes 444 module that could record RedLogFilm (or any other implementation of Red color science) in addition to the internal R3D capture. I think something like the Arri XR module -- just a box that bolts on one side of the camera -- could theoretically do it, assuming it's got power, timecode, audio, and so on. Basically, it'd be Meizler module that just did ProRes and nothing else.

If either Red or a third-party company could do this for (say) under $3K, I think it'd answer all the questions now being asked. I routinely use both R3D and ProRes on different projects, and they each have benefits and drawbacks. Still, there's a reason why a lot of American TV shows have a ProRes-based workflow. And 4K works just fine in ProRes, from my own experience.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

Its pretty simple. Use the Epic dragon for bigger jobs, use raven for jobs that require prores, use the cameras TOGETHER to do multicam shoots.. this was my plan as soon as i saw raven,.. I did not feel like upgrading my new dragon AGAIN to weapon for what i saw as not many new features. now i will have 2 cameras for less than it would have cost me to upgrade the one. I'm happy.

I think this is the smart best bang for the buck play!

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

It would be nice to add a cheap and affordable 4k hdmi module to record 4k prores to external recorders...

 

[Hal Long]

Can't say that I agree. I think the Raven is a good opportunity for those new to red, but for those of us with PL lenses (that we'd like to use on our productions) it may not be the most convenient to jump to EF or EF-mount lenses and FF systems. The capability that Raven has to do 422 up to 120 fps is stellar, but what I think many may be looking for is a module that does 444 on the dragon, as it's been pretty easy to do 422 (HD at least) on Epic (24 & 30P) for some time. I love my Odysseys, but the easiest prores recorders are the Samurais and they can be bought for a few hundred $ these days. I shoot everything R3D 6K and sometimes do a 422 PR HQ SDI line record for the client. I love the R3D workflow, but I know there is a prores mindset with a lot of producers who have shot Alexa and being able to say I can offer 444 as well would be helpful.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

At this point in time I can't see RED building any new modules for the DSMC1 platform. I'd even go so far as to suggest that one of the motivations to get the DSMC2 form factor into the world was to support modules and functions that were problematic on the older hardware.

BTW, AFAIK, no version of the Weapon and/or it's modules offers UHD/4K monitoring. DSMC1 has the REDCAST module, but unless I missed it - there is no live UHD/4K solution for Weapon. I'm wondering if we might see both a Weapon (DSMC2) version of REDCAST with SMPTE fiber support, etc - AND - a "deluxe" expander that offers UHD out via HDMI as well as plenty of spigots for shows that need lots of specific features.

Cheers - #19

 

[Christoffer Glans]

my 1 year old Epic Dragon is stuck with producing RAW only.

Sorry but that was the worst thing I've heard all day. Having RAW is light years better than ProRes and better and better computers will make your RAW work fast as anything else. Why do you want ProRes?

 

[Thomas Koba]

Doesnt Prores take much less space? Say if you're doing a 2 hour interview or something? Or shooting documentary, where you're just following someone arround for a day?

Or does it take same space approx.?

...but yes, I don't understand all this proxie-stuff with quicktime these days, as everyone can edit R3D files these days.

 

[DJ Meyer]

Doesnt Prores take much less space? Say if you're doing a 2 hour interview or something? Or shooting documentary, where you're just following someone arround for a day?

Or does it take same space approx.?

It depends entirely on what flavor of prores and what .r3d compression you are comparing. It can be more, or less, or similar.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

Pro Rez can be pretty heavyweight bit wise. Red Raw is no doubt the best path. In Premiere it is a breeze and you can use the RedCine controls right there.

The problem I fear with this discussion is that it may be a year or so too late. I am not sure that having pro rez or not will change hearts and minds on which camera to use. Maybe a few.
But the wait has been too long and some cameras have by now taken advantage of this capability to build market share.

If one is shooting Red with Producers who like Red, then I think there is little to it. They won't care. For others - well - one of the necessities with Pro Rez is to know that the camera is baking in a pretty image right out the gate. It is not just about pro rez, but nice looking pro rez with easy to use in camera LUT that is a snap to dial in.