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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Will we ever get PRORES ?

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Mert Icgoren

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I find it really frustrating that the new RAVEN can produce ProRes whereas my 1 year old Epic Dragon is stuck with producing RAW only.

Don't tell me it's about processing power and yada yada... The BMPC can even record RAW and ProRes so no I'm not buying the "its about processing power..." thing...

Does anybody think if we'll ever get ProRes recording in the upcoming firmwares or are we stuck with RAW forever ?
 
The Epic body will only ever record RAW. Having said that you can always upgrade to the weapon, the Raven does not trump the Epic Dragon, Let alone the BMDCC..these cameras are not even in the same league. Also its important to remember, A lot of high end jobs do not even want prores proxies. Lately we have been transcoding DNxHD proxies from the epic. prores would not really help us i don't think. Not saying Prores isn't great, but if you have a lot of work that entails clients needing prores all the time and don't care what the camera is, go for the Raven. Most directors i know still want 6K for their feature projects. I will have both cameras to cover everyones needs!
 
Mert Icgoren said:
are we stuck with RAW forever ?
Click to expand...
I'd say "stuck" would be only being able to record ProRes, with no RAW option.

Out of curiosity, what makes you want ProRes on Epic Dragon? Is it the file size or your clients' preference or what?
 
I started a thread like this a while back... And Mert I feel ya man. Ain't no way in the world the Dragon can't process ProRes.
A camera that can do 6K at a data rate of 270 MB/s can't write at least 2K ProRes Files? Akin at let for me it's not really about what
the Client want. I personally don't really think it's "FAIR" not to have it in a 40,000 dollar camera and then slip it into the "new" body
lol. I'm starting to feel there pulling a Sony F5 trick on us. Change one line of code in the F5's firmware and you got the closest thing
to a full blown F55 for like 15 grand less (unless sony patched it). Like I said I love my camera but I should at least have the option to add
these functions without spending ANOTHER 40,000 bucks.
 
the Epic is a TANK. I do not think ill upgrade this camera, it does everything i want it to do.. If i want a weapon one day I'll save for that.. I got the Raven because of the compact size and prores features SOME clients have been asking for.. The Epic is still very much an awesome camera.
 
This past weekend I just shot a project with Arri Alexa Mini, and we shot it on ProRes 4:4:4:4, it wasn't even the 444 HQ but the file sizes were much smaller and the whole workflow was much easier to deal with in post. So looking back on all the projects when I have to shoot with my Dragon it was kind of eye opening to see what I could do if I had the option to record Prores...

Akin, it's not necessarily about what the client wants but I also want to have the option to shoot prores. Not every projects demands RedRaw. I shot a short film over for days and I was travelling the whole time, so data wrangling would have been much easier and I would still get really good quality images if I could records 2 K Prores 4444. Dallas Buyers Club, the whole movie was shot Prores. So I still believe Prores is a good option to have.

And I agree with Leroy, having spent that much on a high end camera, I don't think its a lot to ask to expect Prores. All this time RED's rationale for Prores was "we believe in Red Raw format, its the highest quality, we dont want to offer anything less than high quality etc..". So now that they've changed their mind about Prores I believe that we, Dragon owners also deserve to have the Prores recording without having to spend another 15-20 K to upgrade it to Weapon...
 
I think the issue is .... should Red provide the option or not? If customers want it, Red should give them the option (particularly in the Epic Dragon as theses are mostly loyal customers who have stuck with the company).

It does feel a little Sony"ish" to have it in the Raven and not the Epic dragon.
 
If it was the case that Red was playing the games suggested here then the exercise would be pretty self-defeating. The Epic Dragon is a great camera. The fairly Aston Martin pace of Weapon roll out means that Dragon is going to be the more prolific camera out there and will be the camera by which Red is judged for many months still to come. So if it were a simple firmware thing I daresay they would do it. The lack of it has certainly helped the sales of other cameras though for sure. The fact that the Raven can have it with less horsepower is maybe a bit of a slap in the face though.
 
While you guys are somewhat correct in saying EPIC Dragon has the power to process ProRes, it does in that it can process that amount of data. And then some. However, the ASICs within the camera are not designed to process it and have no such ability. Being non-programmable ASIC chips, it's not an issue of software/ firmware upgrades or adding the capability down the road. The new cameras, Weapon and Raven, are now equipped to do ProRes. So, in a nutshell, if you want ProRes ability onboard your camera, you need to move to the newer camera platforms. Best we can do, and will ever do, with EPIC and ProRes is by an external recorder or post transcodes as we have always done.

Technically, ProRes could be added to the EPIC via a module that directly process the RAW stream and all accompanying data, giving us the same abilities that are built into Weapon. Such a module has been discussed at times. In the beginning there was a push-back against ProRes on-camera and RED offering a proxy module or other alternative recording methods or formats. While it doesn't always make sense to the end user, they have had to fight a rather steep uphill battle in terms of acceptance for the R3D format, RAW workflow, etc.. The last thing they wanted their cameras to become was the S35 sensor sized go-to camera for 1080p ProRes. Way too much of the "good enough" mentality out there in the industry. So while their stance on ProRes in the past has often been an inconvenience and often perceived as a missing feature and missed opportunity, I can totally understand and appreciate the thinking that led to these decisions. Withholding such ability is not necessarily what they were doing -- I know RED explored a ProRes Proxy Module on more than one occasion and even tentatively mentioned or half-announced a version or two of such in the past. To do such a module now, what sort of market is there? Would it be worth-while? Affordable? Reasonable in any way when considering what we get if we otherwise do the upgrade to the new camera platform?

Given RED's trade-in and upgrade programs, they are enabling their cameras to uphold some value and lessen the blow to users who need to sell or trade-in to upgrade. For those who have owned their Dragons for relatively short time periods, this doesn't often sit well. For those who purchased EPIC Dragon within a few months of, or really less than a year prior to the Weapon announcement, it hasn't given them much time to recover their investment in preparation of such an upgrade. But that's a whole other topic of discussion and one that has already been thoroughly explored in several threads around here....
 
Thanks Jeff, that's very insightful. As a business decision, Red would be crazy to withhold this feature from the Dragons if it were a simple and inexpensive firmware or upgrade matter. Alexa mini is clearly targeted at Red's market and seems to be incredibly popular here in LA, so one would think if ProRes were an easy option for Dragon, then Red would have made it available to hold onto market share and to help their customers stay competitive.
 
I can't see any point in Red doing a pro rez module for Dragon at this point. I am not sure that the upset over the evolution to Weapon is truly founded at this point either. NAB was months ago. Soon it will be 2016. And still the Dragon is the main Red representative cam out there - and it is that sensor's performance for the near future by which the company is judged. The subtle improvements will most likely not move too many to make a quick jump to Weapon just because of pro rez. The people who see the advantages with Weapon I would think are seasoned Red Owners who see the benefits. The Raven is a hit as it opens the Red world in a more affordable package and that is a great thing. For now Dragon is still top johnny in my book - and will hold its own till the sensor tech changes.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's been pretty simple to record ProRes via SDI off Epic or Dragon for some time now with outboard modules like an Atomos Samurai or Odyssey 7Q or similar, no? I know Atomos adopted a stop/start trigger as well as file name passthrough quite awhile ago, I assume other manufacturers have followed suit. I know it's perhaps not as elegant a solution, but if you really need ProRes, a fairly cheap solution like that can fit the bill quite nicely.
 
John Aldrich said:
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's been pretty simple to record ProRes via SDI off Epic or Dragon for some time now with outboard modules like an Atomos Samurai or Odyssey 7Q or similar, no? I know Atomos adopted a stop/start trigger as well as file name passthrough quite awhile ago, I assume other manufacturers have followed suit. I know it's perhaps not as elegant a solution, but if you really need ProRes, a fairly cheap solution like that can fit the bill quite nicely.
Click to expand...

John = Hatereliminator. True story
 
John Aldrich said:
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's been pretty simple to record ProRes via SDI off Epic or Dragon for some time now with outboard modules like an Atomos Samurai or Odyssey 7Q or similar, no? I know Atomos adopted a stop/start trigger as well as file name passthrough quite awhile ago, I assume other manufacturers have followed suit. I know it's perhaps not as elegant a solution, but if you really need ProRes, a fairly cheap solution like that can fit the bill quite nicely.
Click to expand...


this only works for 24 or 30 fps shooting vs overcranked shooting so playback recording or having to use r3d files kill the budget these days same with rocket x. So weapon with prores and auto black shade and LUTs make it a great update for many productions
 
Correct no 4k like on CF weapon so weapon rocks for these higher end options when they matter to production
 
Not sure why the ProRes obsession persists in the age of GPU debayering.
 
Because 20 mags still takes two days to encode on a rmbp without rocket x unfortunately even at half debayer....
 
If you wanted Proress then why did you buy the epic dragon? When you purchased it you knew it didn't have that feature and you were fine with the price. Soon there will be Raven, (?) camera and weapon available. They will all have dscm2 features and body.
 
Brian Merlen said:
Because 20 mags still takes two days to encode on a rmbp without rocket x unfortunately even at half debayer....
Click to expand...

Yeah. Need the right tools for the job if you're doing 20 mags at time.

But in general why encode? All modern NLEs edit r3d.
 
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