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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Why 4k

Graeme Nattress

Graeme Nattress

RED Problem Solver
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Even if you're thinking HD resolutions or 2k for RED, here's why I think 4k is the way:

1) Longevity: Get a nice shot in 4k and it will last years for stock photography. A programme made in 4k will be salable for many years to come.

2) Quality: There's no substitute for quality and that's what 4k gives you. On big screen, it's simply stuning.

3) Reframing: If you're doing an HD or 2k production, you've got lots of room to reframe and zoom with 4k.

4) Oversampling: Going down to HD? Now you're oversampling which is always great for image quality.

5) Unique Selling Point: Need to differentiate yourself from your competitors? Then shoot 4k when they're still stuck in HD.

Anyone have any more good 4k uses?

Graeme
 
Graeme what do you see as cost effective long term archive storage for the 4k data with passable transfer rates to and from the archive?
 
Original 4k camera data can be kept in it's native REDCODE RAW form. That should keep data rates manageble to a great extent. The whole of the IT industry is working on ways to archive the gigabytes of data needed, and I personally think that normal hard drives will keep data ok until large format optical or holographic media is readily available, with data tape keeping us going through that.

Graeme
 
Is there a REDCode data rate table listed? With storage I will have to start look for a spectra T950 going cheap.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
4) Oversampling: Going down to HD? Now you're oversampling which is always great for image quality.
Click to expand...

What I've said since the first images released is that the RED is the ultimate 2K camera due to the oversampling. Oversampling gives you desired natural sharpness, not artifical edge enhanced sharpness or an image that is overly soft, like I see from native 2K/1080 Bayer sensors.

Regards,
 
Oversampling apply directly to project.
Oversampling apply directly to project.
Oversampling apply directly to project.
 
I think this is just a no-brainer. Regarding storage: it's going to continue to grow and two years from now we'll be wondering how we ever got along with that measly 500GB hard drive.
 
This is good stuff. I've adapted it for my rental site. I re-wrote Graeme's initial thoughts as;

Longevity: A 4k frame can serve as stock and production photos. A 4K program will be sellable for many years to come.

Visual Effects: When the extra detail for a green screen key or difficult camera track is needed, 4K delivers four times the information as 2K.

Reframing: Producing an HD or 2K show? Use a 4K frame for re-frames and punch-ins.
Save time on the set by eliminating setups and performance discontinuities. DoP's like to re-light and reframe closer to the axis on close-ups, but when schedules are tight or a shot was missed, 4K can save the shoot.

Over-sampling: 4K down-sampled to 2K or HD produces more natural detail than native cameras' sharpening algorithms.


M
 
2k downsampled from 4k can look nice, but, given a big screen and a projector, which is nicer:

4k on a 4k projector, or

2k downsampled from 4k on a 2k projector,

assuming both projectors are of equal quality.

Graeme
 
It's not a quiz, but a philosophical question of sorts, mostly directed at Jim Arthur's post above.

Graeme
 
Yeah, I hear ya Graeme. I think another important side-point to make is that RED will be able to capture beautiful 2k/1080p/720p natively even without downsampling. For my personal use, I will alyways try to shoot 4k at all times, however, there will be times where I'll want to shoot 120 fps in 2k.
 
For 2k 120p you'd need an external recording device off the high speed port though. 2k 60p can go out REDCODE.

Graeme
 
I read that for Miami Vice, they shot it mostly with the Viper, but had to resort back to film for some of the action sequences. I think having to go the external route for 120fps 2k is a small sacrifice compared to resorting to a film cam for anything higher than 60fps.

Anyways, with REDCODE there really isn't any other excuse not to shoot 4k unless you only have super 16mm/B4 lenses.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
2k downsampled from 4k can look nice, but, given a big screen and a projector, which is nicer:

4k on a 4k projector, or

2k downsampled from 4k on a 2k projector,

assuming both projectors are of equal quality.

Graeme
Click to expand...

The 4K on 4K of course!

Well, then how about this... which will look nicer, starting from a Bayer sensor; 4K on a 4K projector, or downsampled 6 or 8K on a 4K projector?

Whenever possible, I simply prefer to think of post and finish at one level below whatever a camera is capable of.

This philosophy gives you breathing room for VFX and manipulation you simply wouldn't have if your final output is equal to your shooting size.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Even if you're thinking HD resolutions or 2k for RED, here's why I think 4k is the way:

1) Longevity: Get a nice shot in 4k and it will last years for stock photography. A programme made in 4k will be salable for many years to come.

2) Quality: There's no substitute for quality and that's what 4k gives you. On big screen, it's simply stuning.

3) Reframing: If you're doing an HD or 2k production, you've got lots of room to reframe and zoom with 4k.

4) Oversampling: Going down to HD? Now you're oversampling which is always great for image quality.

5) Unique Selling Point: Need to differentiate yourself from your competitors? Then shoot 4k when they're still stuck in HD.

Anyone have any more good 4k uses?

Graeme
Click to expand...

Of all the 4k DIs I have worked on, none of them have been shown theatrically in 4k yet. Who knows when they will be, because the reality is that not all theater chains are ready to convert to digital, let alone 4k.

4k to film I have noticed does look nicer, since it's a true film resolution.

Red 4k transfered to film is going to have to be downsampled since film 4k is limited to 4096x3112, with 440 pixels on the left for soundtrack, so 4520x2540, would have to be scaled to 3656x2054.
 
I've not see that comparison - nearest I've seen is 65mm on 4k and RED, although having a very different aesthetic, (not just because it was shot with very intentions) RED didn't stand out as being necessarily being worse. The smaller grain on the larger film formats also help them look more like the RED footage.
 
Michael Morlan said:
This is good stuff. I've adapted it for my rental site. I re-wrote Graeme's initial thoughts as;

Longevity: A 4k frame can serve as stock and production photos. A 4K program will be sellable for many years to come.

Visual Effects: When the extra detail for a green screen key or difficult camera track is needed, 4K delivers four times the information as 2K.

Reframing: Producing an HD or 2K show? Use a 4K frame for re-frames and punch-ins.
Save time on the set by eliminating setups and performance discontinuities. DoP's like to re-light and reframe closer to the axis on close-ups, but when schedules are tight or a shot was missed, 4K can save the shoot.

Over-sampling: 4K down-sampled to 2K or HD produces more natural detail than native cameras' sharpening algorithms.


M
Click to expand...

Not many people are doing vfx in 4k because it's more than 4 times the work. I don't even think Weta, Pixar, ILM and Dreamworks are doing everything in 4k, and they have more rendering power than any of us.

The reality of greenscren/bluesreen work is that more often than not, you need a good roto team to fix things. Rotoing in 4k is going to take a long time, no matter how good you are.

CG work in 4k is just going to be nuts even with render farms.

GPU rendering will help, but that's still mostly for previewing.
 
I don't see 4k as being 4 times the work though,

4k rotoing isn't going to be slower. Roto work is a human tracing an edge with vector tools. Image resolution doesn't make this process take longer, and the cleaner the edges to see, the better, I'd think, not worse.

CG work is going to take longer to render. That's true, but it's not the end of the world as render power is growing much faster than image raster size :-)

That said, I see the biggest 4k slowdowns are the things you do every shot - colour correction, and that's where a good GPU can really help, and that technology is with us today.

Graeme
 
Greame: I think I once heard you say that REDCODE is only for footage coming out of the camera. But it strikes me that REDCODE would be a fabulous archiving format. At the moment I plan to convert all RED 4K REDCODE footage to tiff image sequences (uncompressed) for post processing, grading, vfx, etc. Is there a way that we can re-compress these final shots to REDCODE (on redcine?) at the end of the day before archiving?

Thanks
 
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