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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Why 4k

Would someone be willing to talk about uncompressed 4.5k? like what's its advantage over compressed 4k besides the obvious, more resolution.
 
Well uncompressed means there is all the informations that the camera captures. That means that this is the ultimate quality your camera could get. And if you are going for compositing work, you start with the best quality possible, knowing that any image transformation is going to destruct some informations. In uncompress world every info is there, in compress, well you take out some infos (that you think is not visible, or very hardly) and get smaller files.
But there is a multitude of kind of compression, and redcode seems to me pretty good visualy. I mean what is the point (again I am open minded) to shoot uncompressed, if on the final product, no one can make the difference, with a clever compression? But I am not saying that you cannot see any difference between redcode and uncompress (neither am I saying that you can see it, anyway the red cam and redcode are not finished yet).

Uncompressed 4,5 k is going to be something huge to manage, think that it will be in raw 10 bit 4520x2540x10x1x24 = around 2750Mb/sec (@ 24 fps) making around 1.225 TB/hour....and when you process them in rgb 12 bit, it will be 4520x2540x12x3x24 = around 10Gb/sec (@ 24 fps) (I guess this one would be hard to play real time, or very expensive if you prefer), making around 4.5 TB/hour.
Unless you are planning to invest a lot of money, I think you cannot really manage a total 4.5 k uncompressed workflow, unless you are doing very small project, such as advertising, music clip, or short movies.

My 2 cents,
antoine.
 
The main advantage in my opinion is higher framerates. 4.5K up to 60 fps & 2K up to 120 fps.

Otherwise REDCODE compression should be good enough for most.
 
1st Ever Post. I just reserved my RED yesterday and a 18-85mm lens. Praise God. Will REDCODE be able to capture 4K at 60P or this only when you capture uncompressed? I believe that REDCODE can attain 60P, but only in 2K. Is it possible to shoot 24P in 4K and 60P in 2K and edit them together on the same project with REDCINE?
 
REDCINE is not an edit application. It is a RAW conversion like tool for moving images. It allows you to convert the camera format to whatever you want to edit with and get the color in the ballpark etc.

Obviously REDCINE will load the camera generated formats.

The 60 fps in 4(.5)K is only available through the RAW port.
 
twelve
 
It has in total 4900x2580 photosites.

Graeme
 
Let me expand my question since I think I didn't express myself clearly.

Pixel, is defined as all elements (photo sensors) required to capture white color representation of the display or capture point.

Also if MYSTERIUM has Bayer or any other green color enhancer it should have two photo sensors for green or a bit larger sensor for the green color.

Thus, RGB and one more G this gives you 4 photo sensors.
Some CMOS have all RGB sensors stuck on top of each other but I will count it as a 3 photo sensors anyway.

So again, how many photo sensors we have sensing independently the light, regardless of the color, coming to the MYSTERIUM CMOS chip?

Andrew
 
We've discussed bayer CFA technology at length on this and the DVXUser and DVInfo forums. The Mysterium sensor has 4900x2580 photosites, and it uses a standard bayer CFA.

Graeme
 
Hello Rogelio,

I think 4k @ 60fps is only possible with uncompressed, because redcod cannot process so quickly.
The only way I think you could edit 4k images and 2k images on the same project is to downsize your 4k footage to 2k in redcine, or you might be try to mix scan from 4k and 2k when print back your images on film. This might work as well (but only if you are going back to film).

antoine.
 
Rob Lohman said:
REDCINE is not an edit application. It is a RAW conversion like tool for moving images. It allows you to convert the camera format to whatever you want to edit with and get the color in the ballpark etc.

Obviously REDCINE will load the camera generated formats.

The 60 fps in 4(.5)K is only available through the RAW port.
Click to expand...

How exactly would you capture the footage through the RAW port and get it into the CPU? I know you would run it through REDCINE, but what is the best method to do this?
 
RED-RAID connects to the RAW port and takes care of all of this. This is a product we'll launch later so no specific details are available yet. The maximum datarate over that port will reach around 900 MB/s (that's megabytes a second).
 
Graeme Nattress said:
We've discussed bayer CFA technology at length on this and the DVXUser and DVInfo forums. The Mysterium sensor has 4900x2580 photosites, and it uses a standard bayer CFA.

Graeme
Click to expand...

Graeme, sorry for this but I went to DVXUser forum and searched by keyword MYSTERIUM and spent 2 hours reading all posts and nothing about how many pixels MYSTERIUM has. Also I did try keyword CFA and not even one post came out there.

Just wanted to explain the confusion, since I have seen many references to the MYSTERIUM as a 12 Mpixel sensor but if it has 12M photo sites then it is only 3 Mpixel sensor, correct?
Otherwise MYSTERIUM have to have 48M photo sites (photo sensors).

Could you be so kind and try to find the link to the discussion about it on the other forums, please.

Andrew
 
Andrew, we've talked at great length about the bayer sensor. To say that it only has 3 million pixels is totally wrong. The sensor has 12 million or so photosites. When you run that information through a high quality demosaicing algorithm as we do, you get 12 million RGB pixels out, each different and unique, and you get a beautiful image.

The sensor is just that, a sensor - not a camera. A camera is a system of lens, sensor, electronics and computer software. You've got to look at the light that goes into the lens, and the image you get out the other end.

Graeme
 
The Mysterium is referred to as a 12MP sensor in the same way as the Bayer sensors in D-SLRs have their resolution in megapixels quoted based on the total number of photosites, not the number of Bayer 'clusters of four'. As Graeme has said many times, good de-Bayer algorithms will produce a much higher RGB resolution than one pixel per Bayer cluster (>75% RAW resolution.)

Nick

EDIT
OK Graeme beat me to it and answered while I was typing
 
If you look at a bayer CFA, and just look at one pixel, you can see that each pixel has it's own neighbours that make up the 2x2 repeating bayer pattern. Each overlaps with the other. So, there are (ignoring the border condition) as many 2x2 bayer cells as their are pixels.

Bayer sensors are also much more efficient than the 3CCD or foveon approach. In those so called RGB sensor approaches, you get, in terms of RGB pixels, photosites/3 resolution out. With a bayer pattern sensor, you get RGB pixels = photosites out, but they're a very nicely interpolated instead of sampled directly. Tests have shown that, say, a 12mp bayer sensor is quite superior to a 6mp RGB style sensor in terms of resolution. Given that RGB sensors on stills cameras omit the vital anti-aliasing filter, so that they tend to look horrible, that conversion factor is hyper-conservative, but let's go with it for now. So, the bayer gives > 6mp full, real, resolution (looks much nicer though, and is ready and nice to look at 12mp) but to get 6mp resolution from a RGB sensor needs 3x the number of photosites, or around 18mp. So, for the quality we get from 12mp, an RGB sensor needs at least, probably a lot more than 18mp of photosites. That's inefficient as they don't exploit any spatial offset. And as soon as you try to interpolate that RGB image up to the size of the bayer image, you'll get nasty interpolation artifacts, and if it's a stills camera, they'll be amplified by the lack of necessary optical low pass anti-alias filtering.

Next, you need to know that RGB sensors don't come as big as Mysterium, and certainly have no where near the necessary frame rate. Next, you need to know that they're also heavily interpolated! Yes. That's because the colour filters they use are poor, and the red, green and blue are all mixed together, and seperating them out requires a fair bit of processing. So much for not being interpolated! The colours direct off the Mysterium are already very close to what they should be and require relatively minor correction to get them looking spot on.

Then, you need to know that the 3CCD approach doesn't work beyond a certain size, and that size is a lot smaller than super 35mm film. And, that the prism causes it's own optical nasties making chromatic aberation appear worse due to the different focal lengths needed for the red, green and blue sensors.

So, you can see there's a reason we do things the way we do them :-) And the results speak for themselves - lovely!

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
If you look at a bayer CFA, and just look at one pixel, you can see that each pixel has it's own neighbours that make up the 2x2 repeating bayer pattern. Each overlaps with the other. So, there are (ignoring the border condition) as many 2x2 bayer cells as their are pixels.
Graeme
Click to expand...


Graeme, above explanation I like the best, in reality Bayer CFA pattern on 12M sensors CMOS has in reality 9 RGB Mpixels that are completley unique and it is the worse case scenario.

Thanks! a lot!!!

BTW I found the link you were talking about, on dvinfo forum
http://dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=80852&page=2&highlight=MYSTERIUM

Andrew
 
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