Why 4k

[Rogelio Salinas]

Hello Rogelio,

I think 4k @ 60fps is only possible with uncompressed, because redcod cannot process so quickly.
The only way I think you could edit 4k images and 2k images on the same project is to downsize your 4k footage to 2k in redcine).

antoine.

Thanks for the update Antoine. Do you think there would be a noticable difference if all the 24P was shot in 4K and the 60P was shot in 2K once it is all resized to 2K or less? I would prefer to shoot everything for a feature in 4K, but if 4K 60P is going to be too an expensive alternative, then I would rather just shoot the 60P footage in 2K. My concern is just that there could be a noticable difference in the footage once it has been resized to either 1080P, 720P, or 480P. If not, then I may just shoot 24P in 4K and 60P in 2K.

 

[Antoine Baumann]

Well, first of all I have to say that I don't know, as I never shot 4k images and downsize them therefore it is just a guess.

I think that the smaller will be your output (let say 480p) the less difference you could possibly see between a 4k original or a 2k, and the bigger the output, the more difference ( I know this one is so true, it is useless . But I think it would be ok at least up to 720p, may be all the way up to 2k...we will have to try.
I am definitely going to run such test, as soon as I get my red one.

ciao,
antoine

 

[Bruce Allen]

Also, Bayer works more like the way the human eye works - eg our luma resolution is higher than our chroma res...

So perceptually to humans, a Bayer 12mp image > a RGB 6mp image.

One problem is that After Effects, etc don't work in Bayer space or any space other than 4:4:4 RGB. Eg. you can't get a Gaussian blur that works at high res on the luma info but at lower res on the chroma info.

So, 4k renders suck. I just finished some stuff at that res for a trailer and it was not fun. By the way, bear in mind that 95% of trailers you see were finished at 2k or even HDCAM! Do they look soft? Of course not! So even if you shoot 4k, consider going to 2k as soon as possible. Anything more is arrogance.

3k 4:4:4 or 4k with Bayer color space is a decent compromise, of course, except the latter option as mentioned above isn't availble from an image processing perspective.

Graeme, care to write some RAW-space optimized plugins in your spare time?

Bruce

 

[Jim Arthurs]

So, 4k renders suck. I just finished some stuff at that res for a trailer and it was not fun. By the way, bear in mind that 95% of trailers you see were finished at 2k or even HDCAM! Do they look soft? Of course not! So even if you shoot 4k, consider going to 2k as soon as possible. Anything more is arrogance.

My feelings as well, which I expressed early on in this thread. Those of us who have had to actually DO 4K or greater rez animation and effects know that it's more than sheer additional render power, that it's a level of LABOR and TIME for creation beyond what's acceptable at 2K.

Point to ANY major feature film in production or pre-production today with a significant volume of VFX that has a complete 4K post workflow... I don't think you can.

Regards,

 

[Andrew M.]

I spent few hours updating myself on the CCD and CMOS sensors.
I see industry is in urgent need to redefine definition of the pixel.
Different for displays different for sensors etc.

The best will be to refer to RGB pixel as a 'MP' and for total count of photo-sites a 'Mp' and then what we do with Bayer CFA pixels? MpBCFA?

Like we have done it for Bytes MB (bytes) and Mb (bits)

So my conclusion is, MYSTERIUM is 12MpBCFA sensor.
I guess you Guys new it all along....
Andrew

 

[Bruce Allen]

Andrew... you're saying that MB (bytes) vs Mb (bits) isn't confusing? I talk to many, many people who sadly think Firewire is 400 MB/s and therefore can't understand the need for 800...

I don't think we need to resort to any new acronyms... also CCD vs CMOS doesn't fundamentally matter... all we need to describe is the sampling pattern.

This gives us:
3CCD - 3 monochrome CCD / CMOS sensors + a prism. These can use pixel shifting or not.
1CCD - 1 CCD / CMOS sensor with a color filter in front of it. This can be Bayer RGB, RGB stripe, Complementary color or RGBE (red, green, blue, cyan) so far. I can imagine future variations eg with ND filters on some pixels for HDR, etc... but let's just describe them as such.

In terms of placement of the sensors, you have...
standard - sensors placed on a standard grid
45 degree rotated - grid is rotated by 45 degrees, eg new Sony CMOS video cameras, Fuji SuperCCD
Fuji high dynamic range - a mix of large and small sensors for higher dynamic range

No need for acronyms, just string the words together - eg "3CCD pixel-shifted standard grid" and give the resolution of each sensor.

The only problem with the above that then 3CCD sensors are underrated - eg a 3CCD 2 megapixel sensor can definitely produce better images than a 2 megapixel single CCD sensor!

Of course, the Red site sadly appears to deliberately perpetuating that confusion!
On http://red.com/cameras.htm:
"Typical high-end HD camcorders have 2.1M pixel sensors"
should be
"Typical high-end HD camcorders have THREE 2.1M pixel sensors"

..especially if the next sentence says
"We deliver 12M pixels..."

Reality distortion field, anyone? Graeme? Jim?

I think the Red camera is good enough to crush its competitors on its own merits without help from un-professional Apple-esque mis-statements on its website!

If you change that line, I will be able to happily refer friends to red.com without giving them a disclaimer that "they lie about the specs a bit"...

Bruce

 

[Andrew M.]

Andrew... you're saying that MB (bytes) vs Mb (bits) isn't confusing? I talk to many, many people who sadly think Firewire is 400 MB/s and therefore can't understand the need for 800...

Agree 100%, I am just disappointed that some otherwise reputable companies resort to put just 3.3Mpixel (CMOS Bayer) next to referring to 2.2MP (RGB) so without adding what kind of sensor we have inside an average person could get confused.
Andrew