Who is RED?

[PatrickW]

While I certainly agree with you. I only agree to accept the terms for the sake of discussion. It's just easier to say "prosumer" than it is to say "target audience for video cameras ranging in price from $4-8k".

And the ambiguity of the language prosumer and pro is tricky.

If catering to Pros means, everyone who needs a pro camera and that includes the people who need a professional solution from affordable entry level to top of the line pro level and maybe even custom solutions, and a solid mid range.

The modular lineup of Red Epics and Scarlet's has a solution for a number of markets, from the serious film hobbyist or low budget indie filmmaker/student to the owner operator to the studio level hollywood production market.

 

[Stuart English]

Scarlet

Scarlet

...all I'm suggesting is that Jim and Team RED should have a long heart-to-heart with the marketing team.

Unlike other companies that IS the marketing team

Don't over analyze this one guys... an 8 x lens Scarlet brain is still < $6K...



And although a true professional product it's still is the same ballpark price wise as these "almost HD" 1/3" prosumer products...

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-cam...0/4505-6500_7-31520842.html?tag=rightCol;also

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-cam..._7-31085889.html?tag=contentBody;similarProds

 

[Scott Crawley]

Don't over analyze this one guys... an 8 x lens Scarlet brain is still < $6K...

If that machine can get out and running out of the box without spending $2k or more on media and batteries, then lots of people will have gotten their undies in a twist for nothing.

Thanks for the perspective.

 

[Danny Lingan]

Maybe I'm used to the old model, but it wasn't long ago I heard cameras up to $9-13k labeled as prosumer.

edit [I'm not trying to add confusion to the prosumer/pro debate which I have no interest in. I'm happy about the creation of a 3k camera that costs less 1/2 than the film, processing and telecine of 16mm shorts that my peers have made. It's less than some of the high-end prosumer cams of relatively recent memory.]

 

[andrewhake]

The bottom line for me is simple. Not a single person would be posting their thoughts on this forum if it wasn't for what RED has done and is doing. People who see this as any sort of marketing "move" just don't get it. You think Jannard decided to reinvent the digital cinema industry as a desperate attempt to swindle people and make money? You are delusional, and you aren't owed a damn thing. . .

 

[Alexander Ibrahim]

I think you would find that you and I are not as far apart on things as you seem to think. I appreciate your response and enjoy the discussion. Thank you Alexander.

Fair. enough.

You are most welcome, and thank you for your own thoughtful reply.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

If that machine can get out and running out of the box without spending $2k or more on media and batteries, then lots of people will have gotten their undies in a twist for nothing.

Until Jim says otherwise, the fixed lens "kit" with HDRx, LCD, battery, charger.. Ready to shoot out of the box, just add CF cards, is $5750. That is only $750 more than the AG-AF100 body. People do have their panties in a twist. But all things subject to change, ya know.. We'll see what the price is once they're available to order.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

If that machine can get out and running out of the box without spending $2k or more on media and batteries, then lots of people will have gotten their undies in a twist for nothing.

Like Jeff says, the $5,750 fixed kit comes with one battery and 16gb CF cards are $300 a piece. I don't think the final price of REDvolt batteries has been listed but they are likely to be $300 - $500 for extras. Should be able to put a decent shooting package together for less then $2,000 more.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Unlike other companies that IS the marketing team

Don't over analyze this one guys... an 8 x lens Scarlet brain is still < $6K...

...

Stuart -thanks for wading into this morass of a discussion. I was going to point that out but really don't have the "authority" (in branding terms) to speak for RED. Thanks for soing so.

~Terry

 

[Tim Whitcomb]

SCARLET IS DEAD STUART, where have you been? Don't you read DSLR news?

$6 THOUSAND DOLLARS? ARE YOU MAD? THERE IS NO WAY IM PAYING MORE THAN AN HVX -200 for all those features, its just not worth it when I can have YouTube quality for <$2K

My 2011 Prediction. Canon 5D and 7D and Panasonic AF100 will be the TOP SELLING USED CAMERAS ON EBAY and CRAIGSLIST. (they wont dare post them in the classifieds here)

 

[Steve Wake]

Unlike other companies that IS the marketing team

Like I said about 30! pages ago. RED is not run along traditional business model. I think what Jim essentially did was announce who he considers to be his customer base. And being who he is - he can do that. There was no way to define that base using a few words in a way that everyone would understand in the same way. However, a lot of the discussion of the last 2 days here and other places has, I think helped define it for a lot of us. It just goes to show why defining a narrower base was a good decision for someone who just wants to stay focussed on the task of making the best image capturing, story-telling tools that he possibly can.

The model of our customer/company relationship is, I think, closer to The Bride and Hattori Hanzo in Kill Bill. As in, hey master toolmaker - I respect your skills, trust your judgement, and understand it will take awhile. Until it's done I'll be getting ready.

 

[Luis de la Cerda]

Took you guys a while to figure that one out

You had me worried ever since the scarlet announcement a few years back.

I think the prosumer market is a complicated beast based on consumer perception. A can of worms.

Of course it's fun when consumer products and professional products overlap and converge because you get access to capable tools at great prices. But, IMHO, when you go after the big boys you can't afford the compromises needed to stay afloat in consumer land.

I'm afraid that if red had tried to turn scarlet into a "best buy" kind of product, it would've had to be dumbed down so much, it would become indistinguishable from the existing array of products serving that market already. Maybe an extra feature here or there, but nothing earth shattering. Plus it would've made it very tough to compete against the established big players.

In my opinion, what red needs to focus on is staying small so they can bring to market the best tools available on this planet without the overhead you have to pay with the "other guys" to keep their empires afloat.

My .02

 

[Jannard]

We have often been accused of "clever marketing"... I learned a long time ago that if you make the best product at the best price, it markets itself. The ones who should be congratulated for marketing expertise (sort of) are the ones that have sold line-skipping and artifacts as if they were features...

Jim

 

[Luis de la Cerda]

... I learned a long time ago that if you make the best product at the best price, it markets itself....
Jim

To me there are 3 types of products:

1. Cheap useless garbage for those who don't know or care.

2. The best product.

3. Overpriced garbage for those who don't care or with too much money to burn.

 

[Niko Pueringer]

We have often been accused of "clever marketing"... I learned a long time ago that if you make the best product at the best price, it markets itself. The ones who should be congratulated for marketing expertise (sort of) are the ones that have sold line-skipping and artifacts as if they were features...

Jim

Or compromises allowing them to price a product in a way that makes it accessible for many...

 

[Todd M.]

Unlike other companies that IS the marketing team

Don't over analyze this one guys... an 8 x lens Scarlet brain is still < $6K...



And although a true professional product it's still is the same ballpark price wise as these "almost HD" 1/3" prosumer products...

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-cam...0/4505-6500_7-31520842.html?tag=rightCol;also

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-cam..._7-31085889.html?tag=contentBody;similarProds

Seriously. Thank you Stuart for putting an official RED stamp on some common sense. I really don't understand what all the fuss is about here. Even with the addition of HDR the fixed lens Scarlet still ends up being less expensive than an EX-1. "Histrionics" was an appropriate description of what broke out from this announcement.

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

Maybe I've missed a post somewhere, but I have always been under the assumption that RED was a "pro" company. Ted has always been very consistant when talking about the Scarlet; that it is indeed not a prosumer camera or a toy - but a full on professional product. A low priced product doesn't mean that it's a consumer product, but considering that the Scarlet and the Epic are relatively close in terms of specs makes a price and feature bump to the scarlet seem both fair and reasonable to close the gap between Scarlet and Epic a little. But - I never really got the fixed-lens Scarlet with the pro-attitude in mind ;-)

 

[Jannard]

It really wasn't a revelation... but rather an affirmation. People have gone nuts all on their own time.

Jim

 

[Lee Saxon]

The fact that Red saying "no more prosumer, we're pro only" was interpreted as "Massive price hikes! Scarlet is now $80k" speaks to just how bad Sony et al have been ripping people off over the years. The entire cine market has PTSD.

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

Clever marketing or not - it is basic psychology that anyone would rather own a fully professional product because of the way it makes us feel - that we are pro's because we have pro gear - rather than buy something everyone can afford. Apple had the privilege of being such a company for many years and have been able to keep some of it though their products are pretty much consumer products by now. I wonder if they can keep that kind of "exclusivity" with less and less focus on products for us professionals.

IMHO - The only real RED product with "consumer" potential is redcode. I hope RED can develop chips with redcode and license redcode so it can live inside all kinds of players like set-top boxes, streaming boxes or TVs etc.