Where the Hell is my 12 Core Mac Pro?

[N_Villers]

There are some serious professionals with quite powerful sytems running hackintosh systems. Has anyone here tried a redrocket? I can't really see why it shouldn't behave properly.

What I would love to see mac do is incorporate multiple intel IOH-36d controllers to allow more than the 36 lanes found in most sytems. Supermicro and tyan both have high end boards that incorporate this. As multi-core graphics such as cuda become more and more supported, and one system using two or more graphics cards, bandwith begins to present a substantial bottleneck.

Lightpeak is probably well down the road but a higher bandwith interface is a must now. Esata, while at the moment is the best we can have, as an interface really sucks. No power, flimsy connectors etc.

Saying all this though I fear that apple has quite correctly realized that for 99.99% of users there is no market for these extra demands and the new mac pro will again be a disappointment.

I'm gonna give a try at a hackintosh based on this motherboard I think --> link.

If it doesn't work quite right I guess its time to start relearning windows...... :badputer:

 

[Scott Brown]

I get the feeling that Apple is far more concerned with iPhone and iPad and consumer orientated laptops than anything for the "Pro" market.

They seem to be putting in very little effort to their "Pro Apps" division and they now face the reality of Avid (MC 5) and Adobe (CS5) literally leaving them behind in terms of development and performance.

Perhaps they are right and maybe us "Pros" really don't generate enough of a return to make it worthwhile for them? We always use the argument that their creative software drives hardware sales but I guess consumer volume sales will dwarf what they make in profit from us.

We've been loyal Apple product users for years now BUT (and I never thought I'd say this!!!), we are looking closely at what Apple delivers next in terms of Pro hardware and software development and If we don't see a marked improvement we'll switch back over to PC and won't return.

At the moment Apple is rather more "form than function" as far as we're concerned!

Scott

 

[Scott Crawley]

BOSFCPUG Supermeet

BOSFCPUG Supermeet

The Boston FCP user's group announced a Supermeet in Boston for the first time. It is set for June 25. The west coast Supermeet always coincided with NAB, but there is no related convention in town that I know of in June. Might there be something coming or am I too anxious/optimistic?

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

You win, Jeff, great points. Your knowledge of these things goes beyond mine.

Wasn't trying to have a competition. So, uh, thanks. :laugh:

I suppose my general dissatisfaction comes from the fact that I always feel like I'm buying accessories to make up for the system's shortcomings. Need another FW bus? Fill a PCI slot. Need eSATA connectivity? There's another slot. Need a Rocket? There's another. Put in the graphics card and you're all full.

Totally agree with you. And I have to agree with Dustin's sentiments above... Not all slots have to be X16, and 6 or more would be even better. As for PCI expansion, I have had rather bad luck with that myself. There are a few expansion systems that work well, but the cost makes little sense next to buying another Mac Pro. Sure it takes up a bit more space and separates peripherals to multiple systems, but you gain the additional processing power for rendering.

But what about the SAS card, RAID card, fibre channel card, Kona card, USB 3.0 card and additional Rocket or two?

As it is now, you know the pain of only 4 slots as well as anybody. I hope USB3 comes standard on the next models, that will solve a lot of problems as it's generally the same speed as eSATA. Lightpeak looks like it's coming along, but it's still at least a year away from shipping. eSATA and SAS are one in the same if you have a proper host adapter. I didn't include it on my list, but I would really like to see a 10Gbps Ethernet copper port on the next Mac Pro. As I said above, other server motherboard vendors are going to start integrating it later this year.

I'm sure we'll see updated and more powerful Rocket cards from RED as everything continues to progress.

If Apple's going to price the machines to the moon like they have been [remember when $3,000 was the ceiling for the top-of-the-line processor machine?], they need to add the features that we actual professionals expect from a $6-8,000 machine.

Definitely. As it is, the only reason they sell any of their systems is because a lot of people are tied to the software and/or prefer the OS. Personally I like OSX, but I'm a Unix guy and I used to spend a lot of time with Solaris and Irix. Before OSX, I couldn't stand using a Mac... If FCS dries up and shrivels away, I'll have a hard time justifying a Mac Pro purchase. Sadly enough, I prefer developing my iOS software on our new 27" iMac. I don't feel like I'm wasting tons of resources like I do running XCode on the Mac Pro. Then again, I'm wasting tons of resources running FCS on an 8-core box because it's still based on a 15-year-old scalability/threading model.

And put a freaking eSATA port on the iMac too.

...

I think eSATA is one of those things apple will never support for whatever elitist reason they have.

I have no idea why they are avoiding eSATA. It's not like they have a vested interest in anything else... Lots of people like to incorrectly credit Apple with creating Firewire and cite that as the reason, but in reality they were just one member of the establishing committee for the IEEE 1394 specification. Right along with Sony, Microsoft, JVC and others. And it looks like the approved Firewire 3200 specification may die before anyone ever uses it. USB3 is essentially the same speed, but is more robust with multiple devices and has lower latency. I truly think that Apple avoided eSATA for two reasons: 1> It wasn't an official standard until very recently. 2> They were so quick to adopt Firewire 800 while most of the PC world were doing "eSATA" without standardized connectors and external hot-swap protocols.

It would be great if Apple would incorporate eSATA or even a SAS host in the next Mac Pro. That was the biggest downfall of their own RAID card -- no external connectivity. That and the initial version had the most stupidly dumb-ass implementation for the cache backup battery system in all of RAID history.

The iMac NEEDS two eSATA ports... Or even better how about 4 of them? I love the 27" iMac I bought for the family, but it's less useful than my 17" Macbook Pro for many things. It makes a hell of a nice second monitor for the MBP though...

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

There are some serious professionals with quite powerful sytems running hackintosh systems. Has anyone here tried a redrocket? I can't really see why it shouldn't behave properly.

It works. Or at least as well as anything else... There are often issues on Hackintosh systems when updating peripheral firmware if the system EFI or BIOS is involved, sometimes it is. In these situations, the user will often need to boot into Windows to do the firmware updates.

the real problem I see with most Hackintosh systems is the lack of a full Apple EFI system. There are certain function calls or utilities that will crash any Hackintosh any time you run them or call these functions from within an app. Anyone who thinks they have a perfectly stable Hackintosh has not expanded their horizons very far in terms of the software they use.

In terms of total cost for what you get, the Mac Pro still isn't so bad if you buy the base configuration and then do upgrades from there on your own, even the CPUs. Most people building Hackintosh systems are going for i7 desktop CPUs, which means single-CPU 4 or 6 core systems (8 or 12 virtual cores with the new HT). It saves a lot of money compared to dual Xeon systems and you can often get better performance as the i7 desktop CPUs are available with higher clock speeds right now and most can be overclocked. In reality, they're the equivalent to half a Mac Pro, but what matters when 99% of all software out there rarely scales beyond two CPU cores? assuming it even does that in a worthwhile manner.

 

[Jay A. Kelley]

The reasons for Apple to continue to make high end machines are becoming less and less everyday.. As noted by their profits... And where they are coming from.

Jay

 

[Brook Willard]

To me, their Pro line should be like an automaker's supercar. Look at a company like BMW. They make most of their money on the 1 and 3 Series vehicles, as well as the X3 and X5. Yet they still maintain vehicles like the V12 7 series... just because some people """"need"""" that.

Another example would be Lexus. Do you think they make a penny on the LF-A? Well for $400,000 a pop they'd better, but the amount of R&D that went into that car is enormous when put next to an off-the-shelf IS model. The ROI on the IS line must be astronomical... and the ROI on the LF-A will be zilch.

It's why the WRC is so important to Subaru and why Mitsubishi took such a hit when they pulled out. It's not because they make a ton of money on the races or learn a lot from building closed-deck rocket ships that apply to their production models... it's that every guy who sees a WRC clip on TV wants his own "rally car" that much more.

I know I've gone off the deep end with these comparisons, but Apple has always been viewed as the "go-to" computer for graphics and filmmaking. How many Photoshop bake-offs did we have to sit through when we were stuck at 500MHz while Intel clock speeds soared above 2GHz? The machines were always fast enough to get away with it, but it was about the fact that Apple made machines for creative professionals and consumers who wanted a solution that worked.

Even if it's been a whole lot of the latter these days, the kid buying an iBook for college took something away from the fact that the PowerMac one section over composited freakin' Lord of The Rings using Apple's own Shake! The company that makes iMovie also makes the software that huge features are cut on! It made Apple the "best" of everything... the highest end and the "lowest" end.

Abandoning the Pro line because they make insane profits from consumer products and iDevices is insane. If anything, they should be dumping more into their Pro line, particularly now that they share so many of the same components as PCs. Focus on the things that PCs don't have at the high-end! Things that Apple can build into their hardware-and-software ecosystem that other companies simply cannot. And if they don't move a lot of professional product? Who cares!? If they're known for having the best, it will help. Technology can trickle down, experience can trickle down and they'll still post multi-zillion-dollar profits every quarter.

Get on it, Apple. Please.

 

[Dustin Cross]

Apple either needs to build the systems we need or let someone else build them and legally run OSX.


Dusty

 

[mike dee]

12 Cores of Xeon Goodness (OSX Style)

12 Cores of Xeon Goodness (OSX Style)


Did somebody say something about a 12 Core OSX machine? :sifone:

It already exists. I'm typing this message from it right now. :yikes: Now.....who wants one? LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWg8fV5P4z8 arty:

 

[Jeff Coatney]

Apple will give us a full release soon and we can count on a happy ending to all this frustration.

 

[Jonathan Stevenson]

That's just a user0modified Mac Pro right? This isn't a real 12 core Mac from apple...

 

[Curran Giddens]

It is a Hackintosh.

 

[mike dee]

It works. Or at least as well as anything else... There are often issues on Hackintosh systems when updating peripheral firmware if the system EFI or BIOS is involved, sometimes it is. In these situations, the user will often need to boot into Windows to do the firmware updates.

the real problem I see with most Hackintosh systems is the lack of a full Apple EFI system. any Hackintosh any time you run them or call these functions from within an app. Anyone who thinks they have a perfectly stable Hackintosh has not expanded their horizons very far in terms of the software they use.

In terms of total cost for what you get, the Mac Pro still isn't so bad if you buy the base configuration and then do upgrades from there on your own, even the CPUs. Most people building Hackintosh systems are going for i7 desktop CPUs, which means single-CPU 4 or 6 core systems (8 or 12 virtual cores with the new HT). It saves a lot of money compared to dual Xeon systems and you can often get better performance as the i7 desktop CPUs are available with higher clock speeds right now and most can be overclocked. In reality, they're the equivalent to half a Mac Pro, but what matters when 99% of all software out there rarely scales beyond two CPU cores? assuming it even does that in a worthwhile manner.

You could not be further from the truth, due to your failings as a hackintosh builder or hackintosh misinformation from elsewhere on the net, or both.
There is ZERO software that does not operate on a hackintosh as if it were running on a real mac and in many cases operates better than on a real mac. Obviously what you have seen have been half-built hackintoshs built by amateurs. "There are certain function calls or utilities that will crash" is a statement that has no basis in reality unless the person who built the hackintosh had no idea what he or she was doing when they decided to build one. Hate the player but don't hate the game. There is nothing wrong with the game. You cannot possibly condemn the whole Apple Tree based on one apple, or one apple that you heard about, from a friend of a friend.....or can you? LOL:hand:

I will put my 12 Core, 4.3 GHz Xeon W3680 Hackintosh up against ANY Apple computer currently made today, running ANY OSX application or benchmark test. The truth will be staring back at you from the monitors of both machines, in the results. If you are going to "talk it" then you should be willing to "walk it" as well. I think George W Bush said it best when he said, "Bring'em On".atriot:

 

[R Fogg]

Mike, are you able to get a red rocket working in your machine?

 

[mike dee]

Mike, are you able to get a red rocket working in your machine?

Any hardware including RED Rocket, Pro Tools HD PCIe cards, Matrox Compress HD, RocketRAID, ATTO, etc. functions as if if were on a real INTEL Mac Pro. I have yet to find any hardware or software that failed to install.

 

[Brook Willard]

You could not be further from the truth, due to your failings as a hackintosh builder...

Mike, take it down a notch.

 

[mike dee]

Mike, take it down a notch.

Take it down a notch about, "the facts as I know them"? LOL Should I water the truth down a bit? Too many cuss words? Could you be more explicit? Thanks.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Take it down a notch about, "the facts as I know them"? LOL Should I water the truth down a bit? Too many cuss words? Could you be more explicit? Thanks.

Unless you have a true efi on the motherboard (Which you dont) the facts are you can run into issues with low level calls to the efi itself. It will work with many things but not everything.
Thats a fact.
And be mindful of your attitude, recommending a hack to professionals who don't play games on their computers but use them in sessions with clients is a bad idea in my book.

 

[Jay Gannon]

I will put my 12 Core, 4.3 GHz Xeon W3680 Hackintosh up against ANY Apple computer currently made today, running ANY OSX application or benchmark test. The truth will be staring back at you from the monitors of both machines, in the results. If you are going to "talk it" then you should be willing to "walk it" as well. I think George W Bush said it best when he said, "Bring'em On".atriot:

BTW your W3680 is a 6-physical Core chip for 12 HT cores. We talk about physical cores here not HT cores. We want a DUAL 6 core server class solution. We already have 8 physical cores so your machine is a downgrade for most of us.

 

[mike dee]

Unless you have a true efi on the motherboard (Which you dont) the facts are you can run into issues with low level calls to the efi itself. It will work with many things but not everything.
Thats a fact.
And be mindful of your attitude, recommending a hack to professionals who don't play games on their computers but use them in sessions with clients is a bad idea in my book.

Attitude? What attitude are you referring to exactly? "Recommending a hack"? Where did I recommend anything? I am simply presenting facts as opposed to your speculation. If that bothers you then I am sorry. That said, it still does not negate the facts no matter how much that you wish that it did. No EFI? Apple's OSX runs Windows in bootcamp and Apple's machines have no BIOS. Your logic is skewed to say the least.